Fresh Meat II: Episode 2

[QUOTE=nellygrl;168730]He didn't exactly freak. He went up to Wes calmly and confronted him. And when did he take it out on Mandi?[/QUOTE] Yeah, I have to say that wasn't really freaking out. If that's freaking out then I wonder what it was called when Wes blew up because KA was going a ruin. Ultra Volcano Eruption?

[QUOTE=nellygrl;168724]Well, it wasn't stupid to send Kenny in. You're right.[B][I][I][U] But they sent him in against Sarah and Vinny, a team they were almost certain to beat and did. That's what made it stupid.[/U][/I][/I][/B] I mean, if they sent him in against Landon, it would have been the smartest move ever. But against Sarah and Vinny? It was stupid for all the reasons above. But I do agree that this is much better television. I'm glad to be seeing Kenny proving himself on his own so that when EKJ are reunited, we know all three carry their weight.[/QUOTE] That's actually what made the whole move smart because Sarah was part of Kenny's alliance so this match-up guaranteed that either Kenny or someone from his alliance went home. I think you're missing the big picture here. Also, how could they have sent him against Landon when he won the mission and had immunity?

[QUOTE]when EKJ are reunited, [/QUOTE]Hope this never happens again...ever. You seem to have a thing for bullies. Besides, Johnny has never proven himself. Evan won D2, and got called in the Duel a bunch of times. [QUOTE=faceless;168727]Anyways, I'm starting to like Kenny a bit more because he seems to be handling things okay and he isn't dissing too many people. Sure he says really dumb things but it isn't as bad as it has been. I still want to know what Kenny exactly thinks of Derrick though. If you heard his interview in his thread he in a way dissed Derrick and on the dailies he said "If Johnny or Evan... or EVEN Derrick was here... blah blah blah". Hopefully we can figure that out.[/QUOTE] Me, too. If I wasn't rooting for Evelyn (and thus by extension, her alliance), I would be somewhat proud of Kenny right now. Honestly, if he didn't have his history of controlling the game and sending in other people, the way he's being controlled right now, I would be rooting for him (I have a thing for underdogs, it seems). As for Derrick, I think he just meant that as in he could trust D, but wouldn't consider him as close a friend/ally as Johnny or Evan. [QUOTE=faceless;168732]Yeah, I have to say that wasn't really freaking out. If that's freaking out then I wonder what it was called when Wes blew up because KA was going a ruin. Ultra Volcano Eruption?[/QUOTE] That got a LOL. I think it was more because their OWN team put in Evelyn against her. I doubt he would have been so pissed if it was Susie or Katie against KA.

[QUOTE=faceless;168732]Yeah, I have to say that wasn't really freaking out. If that's freaking out then I wonder what it was called when Wes blew up because KA was going a ruin. Ultra Volcano Eruption?[/QUOTE] That was the best thing I'd ever seen! Evelyn walking around kicking lamps and stuff. OMGness. Yeah, I think Ultra Volcano Eruption is a good description of that situation. lol. But that was another thing that surprised me about Kenny this season. It doesn't seem like he's there for drama at all. He's avoiding Theresa thus far, which is smart. And he didn't blow up. IDK. I just feel like he's playing a really good game right now. It's good to see him turn a new leaf.

[QUOTE=nellygrl;168730]He didn't exactly freak. He went up to Wes calmly and confronted him. And when did he take it out on Mandi?[/QUOTE] Just because he didn't yell at Wes doesn't mean he took it well and approached Wes "calmly". I think his exact words have to be taken into account too and if he had reacted "calmly" he wouldn't have threatened Wes like he did. They showed Kenny talking to Mandi at some point and telling her something along the lines that although this didn't have to do anything with her she was going to pay the consequences of Wes' actions.

A problem that Kenny has is that the Fresh Meat in Wes' alliance look like they are all gonna go with their partners, while Kenny has Noor and Pete that he has to convince. Though I think Pete voted to way he did as a **** you to Jill for DQ'ing.

[QUOTE=Moonpaw;168737]Hope this never happens again...ever. You seem to have a thing for bullies. Besides, Johnny has never proven himself. Evan won D2, and got called in the Duel a bunch of times. Me, too. If I wasn't rooting for Evelyn (and thus by extension, her alliance), I would be somewhat proud of Kenny right now. Honestly, if he didn't have his history of controlling the game and sending in other people, the way he's being controlled right now, I would be rooting for him (I have a thing for underdogs, it seems). As for Derrick, I think he just meant that as in he could trust D, but wouldn't consider him as close a friend/ally as Johnny or Evan.[/QUOTE] I don't have a thing for bullies. I root for people who play the game in a way that I can respect. KEJ play dirty sometimes, yes, but they do what they need to do to win. Everyone who comes in and is like, "Boohoo! KEJ run these challenges and I'm sick of it... They're such bullies!"... I don't understand it... They're playing the game. You send people home. You make moves that ensure you stay to the end. What would they do if they had the harnesses of the game? Be sweet and sacrifice themselves? I'm not going to hate EKJ for playing the game or being top dogs. There are things that they do that I think go too far (like how they treat certain people in the house outside the challenges - Sarah during the Ruins for example), but most of their strategic moves, I have no problem with.

[QUOTE=Bacchus;168739]I think this is lost on many viewers. It was a win-win, with the bigger win being if Kenny went home. [/QUOTE] Exactly! I mean, eventually, if the Kenny Crew wins enough missions and enough Exiles that they have a majority again, it sucks for Wes & Co, but that can't happen for at least another 2 or 3 missions, depending on how Jenn and Ryan (and their wild card Fresh Meat!) vote. [QUOTE=nellygrl;168742]I don't have a thing for bullies. I root for people who play the game in a way that I can respect. KEJ play dirty sometimes, yes, but they do what they need to do to win. There are things that they do that I think go too far (like how they treat certain people in the house outside the challenges - Sarah during the Ruins for example), but most of their strategic moves, I have no problem with.[/QUOTE] I guess I have trouble seeing how Wes' move was any less strategic and more "dirty" than anything JEK ever did. And JEK have definitely been more disrespectful to people than Wes was. Did you miss them harassing Ev on The Island? Sending her (their OWN DAMN TEAMMATE, who NEVER went against them in that challenge, and NEVER even suggested that she ever would) against KA in The Ruins? THAT was a dumb move.

[QUOTE=Dannyboy;168740]Just because he didn't yell at Wes doesn't mean he took it well and approached Wes "calmly". I think his exact words have to be taken into account too and if he had reacted "calmly" he wouldn't have threatened Wes like he did. They showed Kenny talking to Mandi at some point and telling her something along the lines that although this didn't have to do anything with her she was going to pay the consequences of Wes' actions.[/QUOTE] You can calmly threaten someone without freaking. The way he confronted him was strategic. He was telling him what was going to go down if he was sent in. I would have done the same thing had I been in the situation. I don't see why threatening him is freaking...

Here's the thing about Kenny (on this challenge specifically and JEK as a group on other challenges): as game players they are great but once they take it to a personal, they go a little too far.

[QUOTE=Moonpaw;168743]Exactly! I mean, eventually, if the Kenny Crew wins enough missions and enough Exiles that they have a majority again, it sucks for Wes & Co, but that can't happen for at least another 2 or 3 missions, depending on how Jenn and Ryan (and their wild card Fresh Meat!) vote.[/QUOTE] IDK. I just can't see how it;s a win-win with Kenny coming back. Kenny lost two votes, but now that he's back and the line in the sand is redrawn, Wes's alliance is almost positively going to crumble. I just think they should have thought through the win-win before they made their decision because they could have had a win-win if they sent in Jill against Landon (both situation you'd be losing a strong team, and one you'd be losing two votes for Kenny... with Sarah they only lost two votes for Kenny because S and V were not very strong...) and still had Kenny believing he was safe. I just think Wes turned on him too soon, making the win-win a win-win-lose.

[QUOTE=Moonpaw;168743]Exactly! I mean, eventually, if the Kenny Crew wins enough missions and enough Exiles that they have a majority again, it sucks for Wes & Co, but that can't happen for at least another 2 or 3 missions, depending on how Jenn and Ryan (and their wild card Fresh Meat!) vote. I guess I have trouble seeing how Wes' move was any less strategic and more "dirty" than anything JEK ever did. And JEK have definitely been more disrespectful to people than Wes was. Did you miss them harassing Ev on The Island? Sending her (their OWN DAMN TEAMMATE, who NEVER went against them in that challenge, and NEVER even suggested that she ever would) against KA in The Ruins? THAT was a dumb move.[/QUOTE] It's not that Wes plays dirty... I can't respect Wes because all he does is play to get revenge on JEK. I mean, I could go into other reasons as to why I can't stand his game (such as he thinks he's the strongest player for some reason regardless of the fact that he has nothing to back it up...), but in the end, his game is petty.

[QUOTE=nellygrl;168744]You can calmly threaten someone without freaking. The way he confronted him was strategic. He was telling him what was going to go down if he was sent in. I would have done the same thing had I been in the situation. I don't see why threatening him is freaking...[/QUOTE] I agree that you can calmly threaten someone (even of murder) but when I look at the situation as a whole I think that to say that he took it well is a bit of a stretch. Obviously he didn't take it well. Obviously the move bothered and upset him (understandably so) and he made it known. Either way I think for him to complain that Wes "betrayed" him was very hypocritical of him. I don't remember him caring at all when he took part in sending Wes to The Ruins 3 times, he didn't even care when his own friend Johnny was sent to The Ruins either. He's not a rookie, he knows how the game works and he more than anyone should know not to trust anyone, especially someone you have a history with.

[QUOTE=faceless;168745]Here's the thing about Kenny (on this challenge specifically and JEK as a group on other challenges): as game players they are great but once they take it to a personal, they go a little too far.[/QUOTE] I agree.

Earlier someone said something that I strongly agree with. I'm mobile and can't find it but it was something like Kenny plays the game to win and Wes plays the game to send Kenny home. I think that hit the nail on the head. Has Wes ever placed higher than Kenny in a challenge? I don't remember. If so, it was once. I don't recall if Wes was on I3. The point here is this... Kenny has always finished better than Wes and probably always will. You can say what you want, but the proof is in the pudding.

[QUOTE=nellygrl;168748]It's not that Wes plays dirty... I can't respect Wes because all he does is play to get revenge on JEK. I mean, I could go into other reasons as to why I can't stand his game (such as he thinks he's the strongest player for some reason regardless of the fact that he has nothing to back it up...), but in the end, his game is petty.[/QUOTE] How strange is it that I actually agree with most of what you said? Yes, a lot of was he does is revenge against JEK. I hate how he thinks he's the best player (although he did win The Duel, but that was a lot of good luck). But I just hate JEK more for making it way more personal than it needs to be. [QUOTE=Insider;168751]Earlier someone said something that I strongly agree with. I'm mobile and can't find it but it was something like Kenny plays the game to win and Wes plays the game to send Kenny home. I think that hit the nail on the head. Has Wes ever placed higher than Kenny in a challenge? I don't remember. If so, it was once. I don't recall if Wes was on I3. The point here is this... Kenny has always finished better than Wes and probably always will. You can say what you want, but the proof is in the pudding.[/QUOTE] Yes, Kenny was sent home fairly early and Wes won The Duel. Wes wasn't on I3. So no, Kenny has NOT always finished higher than Wes, and honestly, Wes' performance on FM1 was a lot more impressive if you consider his partner.

[QUOTE=Dannyboy;168749]I agree that you can calmly threaten someone (even of murder) but when I look at the situation as a whole I think that to say that he took it well is a bit of a stretch. Obviously he didn't take it well. Obviously the move bothered and upset him (understandably so) and he made it known. Either way I think for him to complain that Wes "betrayed" him was very hypocritical of him. I don't remember him caring at all when he took part in sending Wes to The Ruins 3 times, he didn't even care when his own friend Johnny was sent to The Ruins either. He's not a rookie, he knows how the game works and he more than anyone should know not to trust anyone, especially someone you have a history with.[/QUOTE] I don't think he felt betrayed. I just think he was surprised. Remember, he had a strategic link in this (fake) alliance to. He was surprised that Wes turned turncoat on him so quickly, but I wouldn't go as far as to say he felt betrayed. Kenny never called him out on betraying him. He was more calling him out on a stupid decision. He was protecting Katelynn and in doing so, drawing a line in the sand that wasn't yet necessary to draw. IDK. I just think he handled it well. He could of went on a shouting match (which Wes surely would have done if we take the Ruins into account), and honestly, I thought that was what was going to go down. So he handled it well in my opinion.

[QUOTE=nellygrl;168746]IDK.[U][B] I just can't see how it;s a win-win with Kenny coming back. [/B][/U]Kenny lost two votes, but now that he's back and the line in the sand is redrawn, Wes's alliance is almost positively going to crumble. I just think they should have thought through the win-win before they made their decision because they could have had a win-win if they sent in Jill against Landon (both situation you'd be losing a strong team, and one you'd be losing two votes for Kenny... with Sarah they only lost two votes for Kenny because S and V were not very strong...) and still had Kenny believing he was safe. I just think Wes turned on him too soon, making the win-win a win-win-lose.[/QUOTE] I don't understand why you can't see it though. Kenny came back but his alliance is [B]hurt[/B] by loosing two of its members. Whether he can re-group or not is yet to be seen but at the time and based on what they knew it was certainly a smart move. Let's send in Kenny against someone from his alliance, if he doesn't go home then someone from his alliance does and he no longer has control of the game. Even if he were to re-gain control of the game he'd have to spend time trying to convince members of Wes' alliance to join his, while Wes can simply relax and try to keep them happy which is certainly easier than having to convince them to join forces with him; the work is already done. I really don't understand why you don't see how sending in a strong player against someone from his own alliance is a smart move. BTW, You keep talking about sending in Landon when Landon was not an option, he won the mission and had immunity.

[QUOTE=Insider;168751]Earlier someone said something that I strongly agree with. I'm mobile and can't find it but it was something like Kenny plays the game to win and Wes plays the game to send Kenny home. I think that hit the nail on the head. Has Wes ever placed higher than Kenny in a challenge? I don't remember. If so, it was once. I don't recall if Wes was on I3. The point here is this... Kenny has always finished better than Wes and probably always will. You can say what you want, but the proof is in the pudding.[/QUOTE] Someone forgot about The Duel...

[QUOTE=Moonpaw;168752] But I just hate JEK more for making it way more personal than it needs to be.[/QUOTE] I don't get what you mean by that? How do they make it more personal? You mean how they make fun of people? Because I do agree that they do that FAAAAR too much.

[QUOTE=Dannyboy;168755]I don't understand why you can't see it though[/QUOTE] I don't it was a win/win or win/lose situation. Cause what would you have rather happened if you were Wes? The king of the opposing alliance coming back and going a full out war against you or a team of pawns who don't really know anything about the game coming back and you probably could have rallied them up or gotten them out easily.

[QUOTE=AJHill;168756]Someone forgot about The Duel...[/QUOTE] You do realize she said "Has Wes ever placed higher than Kenny in a challenge? I don't remember. If so, it was once." and that [I]once[/I] is the Duel.

[QUOTE=Dannyboy;168755]I don't understand why you can't see it though. Kenny came back but his alliance is [B]hurt[/B] by loosing two of its members. Whether he can re-group or not is yet to be seen but at the time and based on what they knew it was certainly a smart move. Let's send in Kenny against someone from his alliance, if he doesn't go home then someone from his alliance does and he no longer has control of the game. Even if he were to re-gain control of the game he'd have to spend time trying to convince members of Wes' alliance to join his, while Wes can simply relax and try to keep them happy which is certainly easier than having to convince them to join forces with him; the work is already done. I really don't understand why you don't see how sending in a strong player against someone from his own alliance is a smart move. BTW, You keep talking about sending in Landon when Landon was not an option, he won the mission and had immunity.[/QUOTE] Oh right, this is true. I didn't think of the immunity. But all the same: I understand how it was a win-win in the sense that Kenny's alliance was hurt. I just think that it was stupid to send Kenny in. In the end, that's what makes it a lose situation for me because with Kenny being sent in, he's going to come back and hurt their alliance. They could have hurt Kenny's alliance by sending in Sarah against Jillian and avoided this oncoming war. I guess I just don't see why they didn't realize that Kenny was going to come back with a vengeance.

[QUOTE=nellygrl;168753]I don't think he felt betrayed. I just think he was surprised. Remember, he had a strategic link in this (fake) alliance to. He was surprised that Wes turned turncoat on him so quickly, but I wouldn't go as far as to say he felt betrayed. Kenny never called him out on betraying him. He was more calling him out on a stupid decision. He was protecting Katelynn and in doing so, drawing a line in the sand that wasn't yet necessary to draw. IDK. I just think he handled it well. He could of went on a shouting match (which Wes surely would have done if we take the Ruins into account), and honestly, I thought that was what was going to go down. So he handled it well in my opinion.[/QUOTE] I think he certainly felt betrayed. He said in his confessional "fool me once, shame on me; fool me twice, shame on me". Then I guess he felt that he was fooled but not betrayed? And how was Kenny protecting Katelynn? Now you really lost me.

[QUOTE=Dannyboy;168755]I don't understand why you can't see it though. Kenny came back but his alliance is [B]hurt[/B] by loosing two of its members. Whether he can re-group or not is yet to be seen but at the time and based on what they knew it was certainly a smart move. Let's send in Kenny against someone from his alliance, if he doesn't go home then someone from his alliance does and he no longer has control of the game. Even if he were to re-gain control of the game he'd have to spend time trying to convince members of Wes' alliance to join his, while Wes can simply relax and try to keep them happy which is certainly easier than having to convince them to join forces with him; the work is already done. I really don't understand why you don't see how sending in a strong player against someone from his own alliance is a smart move. BTW, You keep talking about sending in Landon when Landon was not an option, he won the mission and had immunity.[/QUOTE] That point about Kenny losing members of his alliance is being lost on people. Just because Kenny came back, that doesn't mean somehow things are going to change. It is very much a numbers game, and Kenny lost 2 votes that could prove to be very important down the line. Wes has himself, his partner Mandi, Katelynn/Brandon, Evelyn/Luke, CJ/Sydney, Danny/Sandy, and possibly Landon/Carley on his side. Kenny has himself, Laurel, Paula/Jeff, and Jenn as seemingly the only people on his side right now. That means he has to get Noor, Ryan/Theresa, and Pete/Jillian's votes all on his side to stand a chance at dictating the exile matchups.

[QUOTE=Dannyboy;168761]I think he certainly felt betrayed. He said in his confessional "fool me once, shame on me; fool me twice, shame on me". Then I guess he felt that he was fooled but not betrayed? And how was Kenny protecting Katelynn? Now you really lost me.[/QUOTE] It's "fool me once; shame on you. Fool me twice; shame on me"

[QUOTE=Dannyboy;168761]I think he certainly felt betrayed. He said in his confessional "fool me once, shame on me; fool me twice, shame on me". Then I guess he felt that he was fooled but not betrayed? And how was Kenny protecting Katelynn? Now you really lost me.[/QUOTE] Do you watch the Dailies? The extended confrontation scene reveals that Wes is protecting Katelynn to preserve his alliance. When Kenny confronts him, he says if he protects Katelynn, then he's going to come back from the exile and bring his alliance down.

[QUOTE=AJHill;168762]That point about Kenny losing members of his alliance is being lost on people. Just because Kenny came back, that doesn't mean somehow things are going to change. It is very much a numbers game, and Kenny lost 2 votes that could prove to be very important down the line. Wes has himself, his partner Mandi, Katelynn/Brandon, Evelyn/Luke, CJ/Sydney, Danny/Sandy, and possibly Landon/Carley on his side. Kenny has himself, Laurel, Paula/Jeff, and Jenn as seemingly the only people on his side right now. That means he has to get Noor, Ryan/Theresa, and Pete/Jillian's votes all on his side to stand a chance at dictating the exile matchups.[/QUOTE] But that's the thing... don't you think you're underestimating Kenny's political power a bit?I don;t think Kenny will have a hard time strengthening his alliance now that he's severed his fake alliance with Wes.

[QUOTE=nellygrl;168760]Oh right, this is true. I didn't think of the immunity. But all the same: I understand how it was a win-win in the sense that Kenny's alliance was hurt. I just think that it was stupid to send Kenny in. In the end, that's what makes it a lose situation for me because with Kenny being sent in, he's going to come back and hurt their alliance. They could have hurt Kenny's alliance by sending in Sarah against Jillian and avoided this oncoming war. I guess I just don't see why they didn't realize that Kenny was going to come back with a vengeance.[/QUOTE] At the time the decision was made it was a win-win because it wasn't guaranteed that Kenny would make it back. We can argue that odds were in his favor but nothing is written in these games. Bigger upsets have happened. Yes, he made it back but now he has to work hard to try to get the numbers to be in his favor. That's how it's a win-win. I'm sure they realized that IF Kenny came back he was coming back with a vengeance, that's why they made sure to send him in against someone from his own alliance. To make it harder for him to get revenge, that is if he came back, which he did but which was definitely not certain. He only beat Sarah and Vinny by 5 minutes. Maybe it would've been smarter to send Kenny against Jillian, since I think Jillian and Pete had a better chance of beating them, but back when this decision was made Jillian hadn't alligned with Kenny's alliance yet. I definitely think it was a smart decision based on what they knew at the time. And, do you really think that sending in 2 members of his alliance against each other wouldn't have opened his eyes? I say, if you're gonna hit someone shoot to kill. Either way they did it, the line would've been drawn so why not take a shot at sending him home?