My 2 cents on this whole issue:
1. It's not fishy because this just came out now. She was completely passed out when it went down, therefore some cast member clearly tipped her off as to what happened recently.
2. Personally I think the whole thing is being overblown. The amount of pranks going on in the house have been out of control since JEK started their Challenge careers. They like to mess with people (Look at Mike on Rivals); ultimately it's harmless picking/teasing to them and they are not hateful people.
I think that the fact the rape word is being thrown around is a great injustice to those who have experienced forced sexual intercourse. They were clearly trying to prank whoever's toothbrush that was by making it touch Tonya's genitalia. To put Kenny and Evan in the same group as some of the hateful rapists out there is grossly unfair. I know it is technically sexual assault, but it seems to be a gray area. If they had done this toothbrush prank on male cast member's rear end/genitalia would people still be crying "rape"?
Did they go to far? No question. Will The Challenge die as a result of these allegations? I doubt it, it might die but not solely for this reason. I expect that if The Challenge returns, a lot of new rules will go in place behind the scenes such as the ripping off clothes, harassing people with pranks, etc.
[QUOTE=Stommped32;284983]My 2 cents on this whole issue:
1. It's not fishy because this just came out now. She was completely passed out when it went down, therefore some cast member clearly tipped her off as to what happened recently.
.[/QUOTE]
The public is JUST now finding out about it, shes been perusing this since early last year.
What's the next step here? Is there a certain amount of time that BMP, MTV, Kenny and Evan have to respond? How long does it take to actually set a trial date?
I think it's wrong to speculate on whether this is true or not...it's especially wrong to say that Tonya is a liar. We have no idea what happened. We'll just have to wait and see what evidence comes out in court.
I do think it's a good thing that this incident has gotten everyone talking about the dangerous environment that's created and promoted by BMP for these challenges. Hopefully, no matter what comes of this case, some serious changes will be made.
[QUOTE=Stommped32;284983]
I think that the fact the rape word is being thrown around is a great injustice to those who have experienced forced sexual intercourse. They were clearly trying to prank whoever's toothbrush that was by making it touch Tonya's genitalia. To put Kenny and Evan in the same group as some of the hateful rapists out there is grossly unfair. I know it is technically sexual assault, but it seems to be a gray area. If they had done this toothbrush prank on male cast member's rear end/genitalia would people still be crying "rape"?
[/QUOTE]
Okay so what you are saying is that because it was "prank" that it was okay to sexually abuse someone? Call it what you want but either way its not okay to do that to ANYBODY!
It is NOT unfair to Kenny and Evan (if they did do this) to be grouped in the same category as rapists....they took advantage of someone smaller than them and outnumbered and sexually abused her and humiliated her, I dont understand how anybody could take up for that.
To me there is no gray area, especially since she had abrasions on her private area and was sore, its RAPE.
And its not an injustice to women that have been forced into sexual intercourse either, there are soo many women out there that have been raped or sexualy abused and never had the guts to go forward and say something to their parents or the police or anybody, Tonya should be a role model to those women and to women in the future that get sexually abused that its okay to go to the police and its a good thing that she is putting these guys in their place.
Its the people that say bad things and make fun of the victim that make girls that have been sexually abused scared to go forward and tell someone about their situation. Its quite sad.
[QUOTE=danw34;284752]Jen Physically attacked Cara Maria on Rivals, and was not kicked off the show. Have you watched The Island? Johnny harassed multiple female cast members. I could go on forever. Watch the ruins! Watch how the female members of the champions team are treated by the male cast members. There's too many instances to mention. Bad behavior is clearly being encouraged by those who produce the show. The same offenders are invited back season after season. Finally someone has the courage to stand up and speak out, and fans on these boards are demonizing her. At this point Kenny, Evan, Johnny et al could do about anything, and their fans would make excuses and defend them. Watch the old episodes. There are dozens of incidents that BPM and MTV unapologetically aired on the show. Other incidents that were shown in the episodes didn't rise to this level of criminality or seriousness, but there is a clear history of the show encouraging this type of behavior, and of the fans even celebrating it.[/QUOTE]
Cara Maria was asked by the producers if she wanted to have Jenn kicked off. Same goes for when Jenn attacked Mandi. Anytime its physical, which rape obviously is, the producers step in. There's nothing producers can do about verbal abuse because, you know, the 1st Amendment exists. Of course they fill the house with alcohol and cast and re-cast loud, controversial characters. Its reality television. But that doesn't mean they condone rape or that they're purposely putting their female contestants in comprising positions.
I've read this whole thread and every single response here. I don't think there's anything that I need to say that hasn't been said, but I want to also make it heard that as a loyal viewer who has been watching these challenges since inception, I have never been more disillusioned, angry, disappointed, and disgusted with Bunim and company as well as many of the cast members who have participated in these past challenges as I am now. And I watch the Bad Girls Club for goodness sakes!
I have never liked Kenny, Evan, and that pig Johnny for many reasons; one of them being the irreverent, rude, and despicable behavior that they've shown towards other cast members and in particularly the female cast members. I've noticed these things for a while, but it's really come to point of revelation given Tonya's new allegations.
I have never understood why some of these attractive, charismatic, and engaging women have come onto these challenges and immediately kowtow to JEK. Sara(h?), someone who I thought had a small iota of intelligence and strength, was fawning all over Kenny during that one challenge. He'd insult her, make fun of her behind her back, and everyone would be like, haha, it's all a joke. Maybe some of it was, but there has always been this undercurrent of boorish crudeness that I feel has long spoken to his (and his fellow companion's) disregard for women. I feel like they don't see women as anything but meat. (I won't even get into the stuff they say about EV and attempt to brush off as good 'ole fashion ribbing)
Maybe my reaction is too severe given that they are just allegations at this point, but I can't help but feel that there is a nugget of truth in there somewhere. I have never liked JEK, and have never once laughed at any of the "pranks" they have pulled on the show. If this means the end of challenges, then perhaps it is for the better. At the very least, they need to clean up the sleazy atmosphere that they have long fostered on this show.
I think some people have been looking at this very narrowly. A lot of people on here have been arguing whether Evan and Kenny are despicable rapists or if Tonya is a greedy, "mad-at-the-world" fame *****. But there's a lot more things that could be involved. Everyone loved to screw with Tonya and regardless of how Evan treated her on the Ruins, if you recall, he was her close friend. To me it seems possible someone meant to mess with Tonya by telling her Evan and Kenny pulled this kind of stunt. People said tons of terrible things to Tonya over the years and tons of terrible things about her on that challenge alone. I don't find it that surprising if someone would make up that rumor, drunkenly, not realizing the severity of what they were saying, and Tonya, obviously, freaking out and filing this claim.
[QUOTE=britt;284991][B]Cara Maria was asked by the producers if she wanted to have Jenn kicked off.[/B] Same goes for when Jenn attacked Mandi. Anytime its physical, which rape obviously is, the producers step in. There's nothing producers can do about verbal abuse because, you know, the 1st Amendment exists. Of course they fill the house with alcohol and cast and re-cast loud, controversial characters. Its reality television. But that doesn't mean they condone rape or that they're purposely putting their female contestants in comprising positions.[/QUOTE]
Not true, Cara Maria said on her formspring that she didn't have an option to send Jenn home. Also Adam wrote in his blog: [I]It costs money to fly people in and out of the show, and this late in the game there is no way to bring in another player. There is a fine line between and push and a hit, and according to the Executive Producer, what Jenn did was considered a push. That being said, they pulled Jenn aside the next day and put her on notice that she was on thin ice. That’s why she’s nowhere to be found during the CM/Wes/Paula/Laurel fight in Argentina.[/I]
[QUOTE=britt;284991]Cara Maria was asked by the producers if she wanted to have Jenn kicked off. Same goes for when Jenn attacked Mandi. Anytime its physical, which rape obviously is, the producers step in. There's nothing producers can do about verbal abuse because, you know, the 1st Amendment exists. Of course they fill the house with alcohol and cast and re-cast loud, controversial characters. Its reality television. But that doesn't mean they condone rape or that they're purposely putting their female contestants in comprising positions.[/QUOTE]
I guess different people can watch the same footage, or experience the same events, and come to very different conclusions about what is happening or being encouraged. Did you watch the clip posted earlier in the the thread, where Kenny and Evan are ripping Susie's swimsuit off, and she is yelling that she does not consent to this and does not want to be naked? Did you watch the dailies for the ruins? In my mind, they documented Evan and Kenny trying to demean and intimidate many of the other cast members. In some of the dailies, you can hear production laughing, and encouraging Kenny and Evan to demean other contestants.
There are numerous clips where johnny and others suggest that Evelyn is not a real woman, because of her sexual orientation, strength, confidence, and prowess at sports. By being a confident and strong woman, she has somehow offended Johnny, Evan and others. Look at all the vitriol Johnny has directed at Evelyn, over the years. Sexual harassment is not protected by the first amendment. Regardless, producers seem to be able to cast whomever they choose for the show, despite those people's questionable histories. They choose to put Johnny, Kenny, and Evan on nearly every season. This sends a message. There's too many incidents to dredge them all up in one post. Watch the old episodes a little more closely.
Another example, is the way TJ Lavin treats female and male contestants differently. He has a history of saying demeaning things to female contestants when they are kicked off the show. He is also much harder on female contestants in certain situations. I think it was on cutthroat, where Chet gets a concussion in a challenge, and TJ says, it would be heartless to vote him off the show while he's injured. On that season Katie, I think, gets a black eye from hitting the water headfirst in fall. She's put up for elimination, and TJ doesn't make a similar comment.
I could cite ten more examples off the top of my head, but I feel I am repeating myself with a lot of these posts and others have more concisely pointed out many of the issues.
I think you're doing a lot of reading between the lines of certain things that may not be there instead of going right to the source. Cara Maria said that she's never felt the slightest bit in jeopardy on these shows and the one time that she did it was IMMEDIATELY dealt with by the producers. You can say that this happened post-alleged Tonya incident, but Tina said the same thing.
A lot of women on these shows, regardless of how they're portrayed on TV, are very intelligent women who have other options. Susie earned a doctorate degree prior to the Ruins, Laurel works in high end brand management for Stella Artois, Cara Maria graduated Magna (possibly Suma, I don't remember) *** Laude with a degree in Psych, and Paula was at the top of her class at Quinnipiac Business School. I believe it was said here that Evelyn is preparing for the LSAT and is widely considered VERY intelligent by the cast.
My point is that these women could be doing other things where they would probably earn a substantially greater amount of money. A lot of them say that they don't do this for the money. It's for the game and the experience. If any intelligent person with options to do other things, regardless of gender, were constantly subjected to basically a hostile work environment why would they keep doing it? For what boils down to a minuscule amount of money IF they win and the chance to ride a few zip lines?
I don't think it's right to implicate TJ in any of this. TJ was equally harsh on Dave when he quit on the Island. You know why he didn't say what he said about Chet about Katie? Because Katie had a black eye and Chet was in the hospital hooked up to an IV. Katie wouldn't have still been in the house if she had a concussion. Their injuries were SIGNIFICANTLY different and to say that TJ engages in sexual harassment/misogyny over that is ridiculous.
[quote]Another example, is the way TJ Lavin treats female and male contestants differently. He has a history of saying demeaning things to female contestants when they are kicked off the show. He is also much harder on female contestants in certain situations. I think it was on cutthroat, where Chet gets a concussion in a challenge, and TJ says, it would be heartless to vote him off the show while he's injured. On that season Katie, I think, gets a black eye from hitting the water headfirst in fall. She's put up for elimination, and TJ doesn't make a similar comment.[/quote]
You are throwing TJ under the bus? Seriously? There is a huge difference between being concussed and having to go to the hospital and getting a black eye. TJ rips everyone who is a quitter or gets kicked off. It just happens that a lot more females quit.
[QUOTE=Sloan;284988][B]What's the next step here? Is there a certain amount of time that BMP, MTV, Kenny and Evan have to respond? How long does it take to actually set a trial date?[/B]
I think it's wrong to speculate on whether this is true or not...it's especially wrong to say that Tonya is a liar. We have no idea what happened. We'll just have to wait and see what evidence comes out in court.
[B]I do think it's a good thing that this incident has gotten everyone talking about the dangerous environment that's created and promoted by BMP for these challenges. Hopefully, no matter what comes of this case, some serious changes will be made.[/B][/QUOTE]
I think they have a certain amount of time from the time each is served with the papers but I am not sure what that is in California. I don't think they have to respond until they are served even if they know the lawsuit exists but they could if they wanted to and haven't been served by the Sheriff or whoever yet. I think they wait awhile to set the trial date so people will have time to maybe try to settle or so they can build their evidence. I imagine there will be lots of hearings, subpoenass, etc before there is an actual trial.
I don't know but I suspect that some of this is the old familiarity breeds contempt things both in what allegedly happened and how people react. If this were someone they didn't know so long, then I think it would come across as even more vile, but since these people have been doing this for years together, it could very well have been something that they found humorous that was taken way to far. That they supposedly were preventing her from going to bed and throwing crap all over her until she passed out to me was more an indication of the cruel atmosphere on the sets.
[QUOTE=Stommped32;284983]
2. Personally I think the whole thing is being overblown. The amount of pranks going on in the house have been out of control since JEK started their Challenge careers. They like to mess with people (Look at Mike on Rivals); ultimately it's harmless picking/teasing to them and they are not hateful people.
[/QUOTE]
I think "out of control" is exactly right, but maybe I mean that phrase in a different way than you do. On these shows there are a lot of practical jokes that push the limit, and as many people have said here, I think that the cast is often rewarded for the most outrageous behavior. Most of the cast seem to know each other pretty well even outside of the show, and maybe have loose boundaries with each other, so often the person on the receiving end of a prank finds it funny and no big deal. But sometimes they don't, like Mike on Rivals. Watching that scene made me very uncomfortable and made me wonder why I support this show by watching it every season. The pranks get more and more extreme, to the point of harassment, and harassment is not entertaining to me. Just because something like this alleged incident with Tonya isn't that much more outrageous than other things that have happened, doesn't mean it's acceptable behavior. I certainly don't think it is harmless. If a friend of mine had done that to me when I was in such a vulnerable position, I would feel immensely violated. I imagine there would be a lot of emotional damage, even if the friend thought it was just a joke.
I know what you mean when you say they are not hateful people. And if it happened, maybe it was just a joke to them, with no intent to harm. But their intentions would be irrelevant. That event would be sexual assault whether they thought it was harmful or not. And it could have harmed her whether or not they thought it should. As adults they should know this.
I wish more people, especially younger people, understood that "normal" people are sometimes capable of really horrible things. I'm thinking for example of some of the cases of extreme hazing at fraternities/sororities or in the military, when a group of people humiliate others, often sexually, and put their lives in danger. The people who participate don't fit our idea of criminals, and they might even be exemplary members of their communities outside of these situations, but they are capable of sometimes illegal and (I think) monstrous actions. Their expressed intention is usually that they want to bond the group together, but that is irrelevant. And while under the influence of the peer group, both the victims and perpetrators can come to believe that the hazing is perfectly acceptable, and even a good thing. Everyone should be aware that people who do criminal things don't always look like "criminals," and just because one of your friends thinks some awful behavior is ok, doesn't mean you have to go along with it.
Of course we don't know whether the allegations are true or not, and I'm interested to see what happens with the case. If this did happen, "it was just a joke/prank" doesn't excuse it.
I was just reading the contract that Real World-ers sign and, assuming that it is very similar to the one people that people sign for each Challenge, I think that Tonya is going to have a very very difficult time suing BMP and MTV. Is it possible for a judge to override a contract if this goes to trial?
I am not a law expert by any stretch, but if a hearing date is set, the local area of the case has "local rules" about when the parties have to turn in declarations by. If no date is set and it's just the initial lawsuit filing, every side is entitled to a response, but then that implies someone sits and reads and then what- a date still has to be assigned.
In divorce and civil suits between neighbors, judges read declarations only when they are about to see you, there are MANY steps to get to a trial and the court wants to persuade settlement and not trial. MTV and BMP may have mediation or arbitration in their contract. Maybe that already occurred and did not resolve things so they are forced to pursue litigation. I don't know.
I don't know this type of law, but they will not just jump to trial. Cases can takes months to years and can be dragged out or go fast. Think of some of the ones we have heard about. I still think this will go away and the outcome will be confidential.
No doubt the other parties will respond and have a designated time to. Also everyone will get time to compile evidence and witnesses IF there is a trial.
Some of you were saying this will be a good way for BMP and MTV to change things, but unfortunately this isn't their first lawsuit. In fact, a separate lawsuit about RW occurred in May 2010 at the same time as Tonya filed claim.
[QUOTE=JL81790;284997]I don't think it's right to implicate TJ in any of this. TJ was equally harsh on Dave when he quit on the Island. You know why he didn't say what he said about Chet about Katie? Because Katie had a black eye and Chet was in the hospital hooked up to an IV. Katie wouldn't have still been in the house if she had a concussion. Their injuries were SIGNIFICANTLY different and to say that TJ engages in sexual harassment/misogyny over that is ridiculous.[/QUOTE]
I never said TJ engages in sexual harassment. I think Johnny and others are engaged in sexual harassment. I think TJ is part of the permissive boys will be boys environment, that exists on these shows. It's unprofessional for the host to be singling out people and trying to demean them. he should be above the fray.
I guess I have to cite other examples. When women contestants throw challenges, or aren't trying thier hardest, TJ says things like, I thought I told you to go home when the other quitters quit. On this past season, Evan throws a challenge and by doing this screws over his teammate. TJ's defenders say he's hard on all quitters, or people who cheat. Well, when Evan and Nehemiah are being sent home he doesn't address the situation. He basically tells Evan see you later bro. Nothing about how he's a quitter, he's an embarrassment to the show, he shouldn't be on the show, he's been caught throwing challenges.
Imagine if Casey, Rachel, or Katie had just thrown a challenge, screwed over their teammate, then given up in the elimination round. What would TJ's reaction have been?
[QUOTE=danw34;285018]I never said TJ engages in sexual harassment. I think Johnny and others are engaged in sexual harassment. I think TJ is part of the permissive boys will be boys environment, that exists on these shows. It's unprofessional for the host to be singling out people and trying to demean them. he should be above the fray.
I guess I have to cite other examples. When women contestants throw challenges, or aren't trying thier hardest, TJ says things like, I thought I told you to go home when the other quitters quit. On this past season, Evan throws a challenge and by doing this screws over his teammate. TJ's defenders say he's hard on all quitters, or people who cheat. Well, when Evan and Nehemiah, are being sent home he doesn't address the situation. He basically tells Evan see you later bro. Nothing about how he's a quitter, he's an embarrassment to the show, he shouldn't be on the show, he's been caught throwing challenges.
Imagine if Casey, Rachel, or Katie had just thrown a challenge, screwed over their teammate, then given up in the elimination round. What would TJ's reaction have been?[/QUOTE]
You're assuming T.J knew about it, you're also they didnt simply edit it out.
[QUOTE=Browncow;285008]I am not a law expert by any stretch, but if a hearing date is set, the local area of the case has "local rules" about when the parties have to turn in declarations by. If no date is set and it's just the initial lawsuit filing, every side is entitled to a response, but then that implies someone sits and reads and then what- a date still has to be assigned.
In divorce and civil suits between neighbors, judges read declarations only when they are about to see you, there are MANY steps to get to a trial and the court wants to persuade settlement and not trial. MTV and BMP may have mediation or arbitration in their contract. Maybe that already occurred and did not resolve things so they are forced to pursue litigation. I don't know.
I don't know this type of law, but they will not just jump to trial. Cases can takes months to years and can be dragged out or go fast. Think of some of the ones we have heard about. I still think this will go away and the outcome will be confidential.
No doubt the other parties will respond and have a designated time to. Also everyone will get time to compile evidence and witnesses IF there is a trial.
Some of you were saying this will be a good way for BMP and MTV to change things, but unfortunately this isn't their first lawsuit. In fact, a separate lawsuit about RW occurred in May 2010 at the same time as Tonya filed claim.[/QUOTE]
Isn't the fact that all parties involved agreed to toll the statute of limitations on these allegations from the time Tonya originally came forward with her complaint in May 2010 to now, indicative that they have already pursued some kind of mediation unsuccessfully? Otherwise wouldn't Tonya have formally sued earlier than right before her October 28th deadline? They were obviously doing something in all that time...and obviously whatever it was wasn't acceptable to Tonya...
[QUOTE=danw34;285018]On this past season, Evan throws a challenge and by doing this screws over his teammate. TJ's defenders say he's hard on all quitters, or people who cheat. Well, when Evan and Nehemiah are being sent home he doesn't address the situation. He basically tells Evan see you later bro. Nothing about how he's a quitter, he's an embarrassment to the show, he shouldn't be on the show, he's been caught throwing challenges.[/QUOTE]
But TJ didn't know that he was throwing the challenge to go home. He (like the viewers) thought that Evan did this so he could face CT and send him home.
[QUOTE=JL81790;284997]
My point is that these women could be doing other things where they would probably earn a substantially greater amount of money. A lot of them say that they don't do this for the money. It's for the game and the experience. If any intelligent person with options to do other things, regardless of gender, were constantly subjected to basically a hostile work environment why would they keep doing it? For what boils down to a minuscule amount of money IF they win and the chance to ride a few zip lines?
[/QUOTE]
I agree with you that these women are strong, intelligent, and talented. You don't think Johnny's treatment of women on the island created a hostile work environment???? What is your conception of a hostile work environment? Susie is on camerca multiple times in the ruins standing up for herself, and standing up to Johnny and others who are trying to bully her.
Tonya is alleging she was assaulted while she was passed out cold. One cannot stand up to a bully and protect themselves while they are passed out, nor should they ever have too. Again Evan and Kenny are on tape ripping off female contestants bathing suits while the female contestants are telling them to stop. What if these contestants had been too drunk to defend themselves. What would have happened then?
Kenny and Evan have shown themselves to be misogynists and sexual predetors. They have shown this is numerous incidents which have been discussed ad infinitum on these threads, and which are on camera. Again, on the ruins dailies you can hear members of production laughing and encouraging Kenny and Evan to demean other contestants. They knew Kenny and Evan posed a danger to other contestants, and yet their behavior was encouraged. They were invited back for Rivals.
I would like to know what type of behavior you consider permissible, and what you believe constitutes a hostile working environment. Because clearly we have different criteria.
[QUOTE=raskkii;285021]But TJ didn't know that he was throwing the challenge to go home. He (like the viewers) thought that Evan did this so he could face CT and send him home.[/QUOTE]
TJ saw Evan give up in the challenge and the elimination round. When female contestants have done similar things, TJ has made vitriolic statements to them about how they are quitters, and should never have been on the show.
[QUOTE=danw34;285023]He saw Evan give up in the challenge and the elimination round. When female contestants have done similar things, he has made vitriolic statements to them about how they are quitters, and should never have been on the show.[/QUOTE]
Evan looked like he was giving effort on the elimination round. At the time I thought he was just terrible because he showed up out of fat and out of shape. On The Ruins Diem threw an elimination round but TJ didn't know it so he didn't rip her because it looked like she was trying to win it.
All I can say is that when productions create these wild environments, something like this was bound to happen sooner or later. Whether Tonya is lying or the boys really did do this.
[QUOTE=danw34;284995]I guess different people can watch the same footage, or experience the same events, and come to very different conclusions about what is happening or being encouraged. Did you watch the clip posted earlier in the the thread, where Kenny and Evan are ripping Susie's swimsuit off, and she is yelling that she does not consent to this and does not want to be naked? Did you watch the dailies for the ruins? In my mind, they documented Evan and Kenny trying to demean and intimidate many of the other cast members. In some of the dailies, you can hear production laughing, and encouraging Kenny and Evan to demean other contestants.
There are numerous clips where johnny and others suggest that Evelyn is not a real woman, because of her sexual orientation, strength, confidence, and prowess at sports. By being a confident and strong woman, she has somehow offended Johnny, Evan and others. Look at all the vitriol Johnny has directed at Evelyn, over the years. Sexual harassment is not protected by the first amendment. Regardless, producers seem to be able to cast whomever they choose for the show, despite those people's questionable histories. They choose to put Johnny, Kenny, and Evan on nearly every season. This sends a message. There's too many incidents to dredge them all up in one post. Watch the old episodes a little more closely.
Another example, is the way TJ Lavin treats female and male contestants differently. He has a history of saying demeaning things to female contestants when they are kicked off the show. He is also much harder on female contestants in certain situations. I think it was on cutthroat, where Chet gets a concussion in a challenge, and TJ says, it would be heartless to vote him off the show while he's injured. On that season Katie, I think, gets a black eye from hitting the water headfirst in fall. She's put up for elimination, and TJ doesn't make a similar comment.
I could cite ten more examples off the top of my head, but I feel I am repeating myself with a lot of these posts and others have more concisely pointed out many of the issues.[/QUOTE]
I guess we do see things differently. Because I've never thought of TJ as demeaning women. Its always seemed to me that he calls out people who deserve it the most, ie Evelyn working Kellyanne to the bone, then copping out or Casey whining at every single mission. And TJ did say something to Evan when he threw his mission with Nehemiah. He's a person with faults and inconsistencies like anyone else. He might not like Katie as much as Chet or Chet was new so he was just being courteous.
Regardless, production allowing a push between contestants is far from production condoning rape. And there's still Tina and Cara Maria's statements that they've never felt uncomfortable and that production has always watched over them. I don't see why any of these girls would do challenges if production was really this terrible to them. It's not like the girls are forced into this. They can leave if they want to. Coral did. And they can choose not to come back to another challenge. It just doesn't seem plausible to me that all these people would allow this to continue or keep coming back and putting themselves in a situation like this.
[QUOTE=danw34;285022]I agree with you that these women are strong, intelligent, and talented. You don't think Johnny's treatment of women on the island created a hostile work environment???? What is your conception of a hostile work environment? Susie is on camerca multiple times in the ruins standing up for herself, and standing up to Johnny and others who are trying to bully her.
Tonya is alleging she was assaulted while she was passed out cold. One cannot stand up to a bully and protect themselves while they are passed out, nor should they ever have too. Again Evan and Kenny are on tape ripping off female contestants bathing suits while the female contestants are telling them to stop. What if these contestants had been too drunk to defend themselves. What would have happened then?
Kenny and Evan have shown themselves to be misogynists and sexual predetors. They have shown this is numerous incidents which have been discussed ad infinitum on these threads, and which are on camera. Again, on the ruins dailies you can hear members of production laughing and encouraging Kenny and Evan to demean other contestants. They knew Kenny and Evan posed a danger to other contestants, and yet their behavior was encouraged. They were invited back for Rivals.
I would like to know what type of behavior you consider permissible, and what you believe constitutes a hostile working environment. Because clearly we have different criteria.[/QUOTE]
I'm not debating what makes a hostile work environment. Nor am I saying that what Kenny and Evan are accused of doing is in any way permissible. My point was if these women, a number of whom have other options and skills that would get them more money in an "abuse-free" environment", felt they were in jeopardy or in a work environment that is hostile why would they keep coming back?!
Sarah is a perfect example. A lot of people got on Kenny because of the stuff he said to her, and as much as I like the guy a lot of it was wrong. But then you hear her say that they didn't show a lot of the fun the two of them had together and that she considers him one of her closest friends on the show. Kenny verbally harassed Sarah at points on the Ruins and probably still teases her about certain things to this day. Yet she clearly did not feel like she was in any danger or if anything escalated she wouldn't be protected or else she wouldn't have come back for the next three challenges straight.
A lot of those dailies you mentioned have to do with Susie. Yet, Susie is friends with Kenny and Evan and a number of dailies also show her talking about how much she likes both of them. I've also seen her talk to them on twitter pretty often too. It just seems odd to categorize the challenges as putting their female contestants in jeopardy when some of the women who look like they're directly in the line of fire are close with those being accused of making it a dangerous environment.
I'm just going to say I find it funny that a week ago nobody was talking about Evan and Kenny's behavior on challenges, they were 2 of the fan favorites and now after this lawsuit is released everyone is jumping all over them.
edit: WOW, people are bringing TJ into this, hahahah
[QUOTE=Esquire;284702]Mediation can be done before the suit is filed but mostly mediation will be ordered by the judge after the lawsuit is filed or the parties will mutually agree to mediation after the lawsuit is filed. Just speculating I would think that mediation has not occurred but will happen once BMP and MTV file their response.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=harrypotty;284871]ugh I know...! 100%[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Ch@llengeFan;285030]Im just going to say I find it funny that a week ago nobody was talking about Evan and Kennys behavior on challenges, they were 2 of the fan favorites and now after this lawsuit is released everyone is jumping all over them.
edit:WOW, people are bringing TJ into this, hahahah[/QUOTE]
They've always been ******* and people talked about their behavior on Rivals but with no challenge no one was talking about them. And this Tonya dilema has just been an all time low for what trash and **** they are if proven true.
[QUOTE=JL81790;285028]I'm not debating what makes a hostile work environment. Nor am I saying that what Kenny and Evan are accused of doing is in any way permissible. My point was if these women, a number of whom have other options and skills that would get them more money in an "abuse-free" environment", felt they were in jeopardy or in a work environment that is hostile why would they keep coming back?!
Sarah is a perfect example. A lot of people got on Kenny because of the stuff he said to her, and as much as I like the guy a lot of it was wrong. But then you hear her say that they didn't show a lot of the fun the two of them had together and that she considers him one of her closest friends on the show. Kenny verbally harassed Sarah at points on the Ruins and probably still teases her about certain things to this day. Yet she clearly did not feel like she was in any danger or if anything escalated she wouldn't be protected or else she wouldn't have come back for the next three challenges straight.
A lot of those dailies you mentioned have to do with Susie. Yet, Susie is friends with Kenny and Evan and a number of dailies also show her talking about how much she likes both of them. I've also seen her talk to them on twitter pretty often too. It just seems odd to categorize the challenges as putting their female contestants in jeopardy when some of the women who look like they're directly in the line of fire are close with those being accused of making it a dangerous environment.[/QUOTE]
This is what I've been trying to say. Thank you. I've also noticed the teasing goes both ways. I don't think its exclusively sexism. I think its more the strong praying on the weak in combination with boredom and alcohol. You see Laurel demeaning Eric viciously yet no one's saying she shouldn't be asked back because she's sexually assaulting him. You see the jokes between men, between women and between both genders. I feel like its just big personalities rubbing up against each other. Besides the accusations of rape, the girls dug into Tonya as much as the guys did. Maybe even worse. And many women have stood up for themselves. You mentioned Susie. There's also Coral. Laurel, Katie, Tina, Jenn, etc. When you look at the big picture, not just what people are choosing to see to defend a point, its just a big mess of young, drunk, bored and stupid people with nothing better to do but pick on each other. With this being said, of course producers purposely load the house with alcohol and rid it of any other form of entertainment. They want their cast members to be interesting to watch. However they all have equal access to the alcohol and they all have their free will to not drink, to stand up for themselves or to simply not be a belligerent ***. Some cast mates have said their primary reason for going on challenges is specifically for the partying. Casey keeps coming back and its not because she enjoys an athletic challenge. If the environment was as sexually abusive as people are trying to twist it to be, it doesn't seem plausible these girls would keep coming back. Which is why I personally believe Tonya's accusations to be untrue.
[QUOTE=Ch@llengeFan;285030]I'm just going to say I find it funny that a week ago nobody was talking about Evan and Kenny's behavior on challenges, they were 2 of the fan favorites and now after this lawsuit is released everyone is jumping all over them.
edit: WOW, people are bringing TJ into this, hahahah[/QUOTE]
I don't know what was done and by whom, but I have stayed away from that side of the aisle because I am really surprised that Evan would be involved. I don't watch the Challenges closely, but he never seemed to be one who really got into the drunken drama and it seems like he used to read some and stuff like that when everybody else was wasted, at least based on what they showed.
[QUOTE=Ch@llengeFan;285030]I'm just going to say I find it funny that a week ago nobody was talking about Evan and Kenny's behavior on challenges, they were 2 of the fan favorites and now after this lawsuit is released everyone is jumping all over them.
edit: WOW, people are bringing TJ into this, hahahah[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=LaneV95;285031]They've always been ******* and people talked about their behavior on Rivals but with no challenge no one was talking about them. And this Tonya dilema has just been an all time low for what trash and **** they are if proven true.[/QUOTE]
I agree with what Lane said above in response to people not talking about Kenny and Evan a week ago - what need was there to go into detail about them then when they were not relevant to anything going on at that time? I'll also add that it seems you are a newer poster, Ch@llengeFan (if this is your first username here), but you can go back through years of posts all over the challenge forums here and see just how many people have not enjoyed Kenny and Evan and/or have found a lot of their behavior obnoxious, or just their presence on challenges in general annoying. You could even just pick The Ruins section since this whole situation allegedly happened on that challenge. You could also go to other forums/places that discuss challenges and find groups of people who don't care for them.
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