[QUOTE=jr588;284473]This season just keeps getting worse. I cannot remember the last time such a group of boring and unlikable people were on my TV screen.[/QUOTE]
Season 4 of Jersey Shore.
[QUOTE=Balmont;284443]That is a redflag to homophobia if ever there was one. Another one is the infamous "Hate the sin, don't hate the sinner". Both operate under the notion of many that they are not anti-gay when they bigtime are. [/QUOTE]
I completely disagree. I do not condone, support, or advocate Homosexuality in any way. But I still like Homosexuals as people, I do in fact Hate the Sin, Not the Sinner. I don't think that anybody is so 1 dimensional that they can be completely defined by their sexual orientation. Hating homosexuality does not mean that you hate gay people.
[QUOTE=Coralfan;284394]Finally got to watch the episode. I really liked it. Here is my opinion on the Zach/Ashley thing:
I think the people who defending those two are missing the real reason Sam is upset. Sam is doing what any other caring person would do. All she wants to do to educate and show Zach what the culture is about, and the two of them keep fighting her. It's not just anger at the fact they won't go to pride, it's their comments, the fact they only want to do things together, and they just flat out refuse to learn. Nate was in the same boat with them but he has really opened his mind and learned and made good friends.
There is no excuse. It's 2011, you know there are gay people in the world, and they both should have been prepared to have gay roommates. Hell, this show has helped bring many gay causes to the forefront, mind you in the much earlier seasons.
Sam's anger is fully justified, and she isn't pushing her lifestyle on them. She simply just wants to educate and enjoy this experience with them to full, but they won't do that bc of their closed minds.[/QUOTE]
I don't know how I feel about this. I don't agree with everything Zach says; but he did kinda make me think when he made the point that he likes to go to church, to the gym and to gun ranges...and he'll invite people there, and if you want to go, cool...and if you don't, whatever, he's not going to freak out about it. Just because you know there's gay people in the world doesn't mean you have to go to a Pride parade and learn about their culture, just like you don't have to go to church and learn about Christian culture just because there's Christians in the world.
If there was an involved Christian on the show who went to church every week and none of the other housemates wanted to go, nobody would think twice about it. So why is there such a huge stink when Zach doesn't want to participate in activities in the gay community? He shouldn't have to, and everyone shouldn't think he's a jerk for choosing not to.
Everyone doesn't have to like and approve of everything. If they did, life...and this show...wouldn't be interesting.
I think the difference is for the most part everyone is aware of and associated with Christian people and culture. So that Christian people dont feel any need for acceptance or to educate others. And they dont look at Christianity as a negative thing, even if they disagree with it. If one of them were to meet Zach, say "You are christian?!?", give a disgusted face, and then call their friends and describe Zach as "He's, i mean... He's christian so you know, but he's still cool kind of..." (as Zack did with Sam) and then describe things they didnt like as "oh my god, that is so Christian" , then I think it would be more appropriate. Its why there isnt a "Christian Pride" festival but there is a gay pride festival.
I also think if one of the roommates had never known a Christian person, and Zack said "It's important to me, and I really would like you to go to Church with me one time to meet my community," I think it most of the other roommates would and should go.
I also dont think Zack's dislike of gays comes from his religion. Its pretty clear from everything he's said that he is: (1) Afraid gay people will think he is gay and hit on him, and (2) He is disgusted watching two guys kissing. Both of those reasons are homophobic, and are pretty different than having strong religious convictions (which I still disagree with, but whatever). He might also be against it religiously, but that isnt why he doesnt want to go from everything he has said.
[QUOTE=kingkool;284620]I think the difference is for the most part everyone is aware of and associated with Christian people and culture. So that Christian people dont feel any need for acceptance or to educate others. And they dont look at Christianity as a negative thing, even if they disagree with it. If one of them were to meet Zach, say "You are christian?!?", give a disgusted face, and then call their friends and describe Zach as "He's, i mean... He's christian so you know, but he's still cool kind of..." (as Zack did with Sam) and then describe things they didnt like as "oh my god, that is so Christian" , then I think it would be more appropriate. Its why there isnt a "Christian Pride" festival but there is a gay pride festival.
[B]I also think if one of the roommates had never known a Christian person, and Zack said "It's important to me, and I really would like you to go to Church with me one time to meet my community," I think it most of the other roommates would and should go.[/B]
I also dont think Zack's dislike of gays comes from his religion. Its pretty clear from everything he's said that he is: (1) Afraid gay people will think he is gay and hit on him, and (2) He is disgusted watching two guys kissing. Both of those reasons are homophobic, and are pretty different than having strong religious convictions (which I still disagree with, but whatever). He might also be against it religiously, but that isnt why he doesnt want to go from everything he has said.[/QUOTE]
My problem with this whole discussion is that there is Zach and then there is the larger issue. If he is from northern Michigan, home of our country's finest militia groups (<
[QUOTE=FishHooks;284627]My problem with this whole discussion is that there is Zach and then there is the larger issue. [B]If he is from northern Michigan[/B], home of our country's finest militia groups (<
Can't say I disagree with these guys...
[quote][B]Sam (Real World, Lane), 5 points.[/B] This entire episode of Real World explored football-guy-with-a-facial-regimen Zach's homophobia and its effects on his lesbian roommate Sam and ******** roommate Frank. I have said before that when I am president of Bunim/Murray Productions (the company behind theReal World. It's only a matter of time before they reach out), I am going to put a sign in every editing bay that says, "No episode goes to tape unless the cast gets drunk at least twice." This episode would not have passed that test. However, it did feature one of the most shocking displays of insensitivity, idiocy, and lack of self-awareness in the history of Real World. Anyone vaguely familiar with the show will tell you that's really saying something. Sam wanted to leave with her roommates, so she threatened to end Nate and Zach's Ping-Pong game by throwing the paddles over the balcony. Zach responded by saying, "If you throw these paddles off the porch, I will beat the gay out of you." Read that quote again. Now read it again. It was wrong on so many levels that I had to do a second GRTFL Top 5 list. Below, the reasons why Zach's threat was wrong, listed from "Oh my god, I can't believe a human being actually said that" to "Okay, Jacoby, now you're reaching because you needed a fifth reason."
5. The man threatened to beat a woman. This needs no explanation.
4. The man suggested that gayness was something that could be beaten out of someone. This also needs no explanation.
3. Sam had just learned that her friend was in a car accident. To be fair, Zach didn't know this at the time. But he would have threatened her anyway. That's just the type of fella football-guy-with-a-facial-regimen Zach is.
2. It was about a Ping-Pong paddle. A Ping-Pong paddle, dude. He pushed the verbal nuclear button over a Ping-Pong paddle.
1. It wasn't a porch, it was a balcony. I know, I know. You're right. I totally just added this one because I needed a fifth.
Football-guy-with-a-facial-regimen Zach contends that it was a joke, but I can't imagine anyone finding it funny. Sam certainly didn't. She cried (5 points) when she should have just shanked him and made him pee sitting down, Tyree from [I]The Mad Real World[/I]-style.[/quote]
[quote][B]Bill Simmons (The Right Reasons):[/B] I had a big fantasy week. My Real World pick had a riveting lunch with her mom, drove the gang to a bar, and stood by watching as other roommates fought. I'd joke that I want to beat the boring out of her, but we all saw what happened to Zach. In other news, is it too early to start the "Worst Real World cast ever?" thread? Two meathead homophobes, one blonde who isn't as cute as she thinks she is, a sober 19-year-old designated driver, somebody I'm forgetting, and then Frank the Homicidal ******** and Eminem With Tiny Breasts. I might be out for the season. Jacoby, can you just e-mail me the YouTube clips of Frank's meltdowns as they happen so I don't have to watch this show? Actually, include the "Best of the 19-year-old's group drop-offs outside San Diego bars" highlight clips as well. I like when she takes a chance and double-parks.[/quote]
[url=http://www.grantland.com/blog/hollywood-prospectus/post/_/id/36405/reality-scorecard-worst-real-world-cast-ever]via[/url]
It is obvious that Zach is either putting on a show or is a victim of unfair editing but no one who has a TV screen and access to the internet is this averse to homosexuality as though it is a recent concept. The Real World has been having gay cast members for ages so he should have been better prepared. Unless he wanted 'homophobia' to be his 'thing'.
[QUOTE=RedRaider;284636]It is obvious that Zach is either putting on a show or is a victim of unfair editing but no one who has a TV screen and access to the internet is this averse to homosexuality as though it is a recent concept. The Real World has been having gay cast members for ages so he should have been better prepared. [B]Unless he wanted 'homophobia' to be his 'thing'[/B].[/QUOTE]
My guess is he wanted his thing to be "Hey, Look how pretty and jockly Zach is. Let's worship this gift from God".
[QUOTE=FishHooks;284627]My problem with this whole discussion is that there is Zach and then there is the larger issue. If he is from northern Michigan, home of our country's finest militia groups (<
[QUOTE=Balmont;284737]Yep it is all the gay community's fault. When Sam was told she would have the gay beaten out of her by Zach, it was her fault...for being gay. When Zach and Nate made fun of gays and expressed disgust of gays, it was those horrible gays fault for having pda outside a gay club. Heck it was the gay club's fault for existing. When Nate refused to sleep in the same room as Frank for 3 days it was Frank's fault because Frank was really gay. Heck he had sex with a man. How dare he? Why can't he be a good gay and never have sex with another man. Or even better stop being gay period.
I am worried about Nate. He is showing maturity slowly but surely and no longer shows a complete and thorough disgust at gays. But luckily Zach continues to be the hero of all hero's. Meanwhile I have learned from both Zach and Ashley that gays don't like gym, don't like church, and there can't possibly be 300 in the military. Next time I see a man purporting to be gay at a gym I will explain they must be lying...because Zach has made it clear. Gay men don't go to gym. I am going to the gym tomorrow so I will get ready.
FishHooks, thanks for demonstrating how Zach is not wrong in every way.[/QUOTE]
Zach never said gay people don't go to the gym or church. He said he's comfortable at the gym and church, but not at a lesbian party.
[QUOTE=Balmont;284737]Yep it is all the gay community's fault. When Sam was told she would have the gay beaten out of her by Zach, it was her fault...for being gay. When Zach and Nate made fun of gays and expressed disgust of gays, it was those horrible gays fault for having pda outside a gay club. Heck it was the gay club's fault for existing. When Nate refused to sleep in the same room as Frank for 3 days it was Frank's fault because Frank was really gay. Heck he had sex with a man. How dare he? Why can't he be a good gay and never have sex with another man. Or even better stop being gay period.
I am worried about Nate. He is showing maturity slowly but surely and no longer shows a complete and thorough disgust at gays. But luckily Zach continues to be the hero of all hero's. Meanwhile I have learned from both Zach and Ashley that gays don't like gym, don't like church, and there can't possibly be 300 in the military (along with the fact that gays should not be in the military). Next time I see a man purporting to be gay at a gym I will explain they must be lying...because Zach has made it clear. Gay men don't go to gym.
[B]FishHooks, thanks for demonstrating how Zach is not wrong in any way.[/B]
Challengefan, thanks for explaining how not supporting the rights of homosexuals does not mean hatred to the LGBT community. Yep, nothing says tolerance like telling someone that their sexuality is something sick, dirty, repellent and wrong (and that they do not deserve the same basic rights as you) but that you will allow them to be your friend (as long as they don't bring up that horrible part of themselves).
Just a wee bit of sarcasm.[/QUOTE]
Never said I agreed with his attitude, just that I understand it in the same way I understand that there are people in the gay community who do not go to pride parades and there are some who do. I have no problem with gay marriage (I think civil unions are a bit of a political cover) and extension of the benefits, or gays on the military, or any other of the basic human rights one might allude to. I do have a problem with people trying to tell others how or what to think who don't see that there are other equally valid and well-motivated points of view.
[QUOTE=FishHooks;284745]Never said I agreed with his attitude, just that I understand it in the same way I understand that there are people in the gay community who do not go to pride parades and there are some who do. I have no problem with gay marriage (I think civil unions are a bit of a political cover) and extension of the benefits, or gays on the military, or any other of the basic human rights one might allude to. I do have a problem with people trying to tell others how or what to think who don't see that there are other equally valid and well-motivated points of view.[/QUOTE]
You think homophobia is valid?
[QUOTE=Balmont;284748]You think homophobia is valid?[/QUOTE]
I think religion is a valid basis for a differing viewpoint in most matters, be the religion Christian or otherwise. I also think you and I have irreconcilable views as to what "homophobia" so it is really pointless.
[QUOTE=FishHooks;284753]I think religion is a valid basis for a differing viewpoint in most matters, be the religion Christian or otherwise. I also think you and I have irreconcilable views as to what "homophobia" so it is really pointless.[/QUOTE]
So you believe religion automatically makes something valid. So you believe slavery and rape are okay as a valid viewpoint? So you believe the execution of boys is okay as a valid viewpoint?
[QUOTE=Balmont;284754]So you believe religion automatically makes something valid. So you believe slavery and rape are valid? Sorry but the my religion says it is okay to demonstrate hatred and inequality towards minorities or women does not quite cut it now does it.[/QUOTE]
If you're raised to believe something is wrong, how can that be your fault? I don't think homophobia's right, but how you're raised is out of your control and if that's how one was raised, it's at least understandable.
I still say though that Zach is not homophobic.
[QUOTE=Nightwolf;284755]If you're raised to believe something is wrong, how can that be your fault? I don't think homophobia's right, but how you're raised is out of your control and if that's how one was raised, it's at least understandable.
I still say though that Zach is not homophobic.[/QUOTE]
"How you were raised?" Zach is a grown man. He's not a little child. He is responsible for his actions. Didn't he say something like, "I'm going to beat the gay out of you." Not only is that homophobic, it's offensive on other levels as well.
[QUOTE=danw34;284759]"How you were raised?" Zach is a grown man. He's not a little child. He is responsible for his actions. Didn't he say something like, "I'm going to beat the gay out of you." Not only is that homophobic, it's offensive on other levels as well.[/QUOTE]
So what if he's a grown man? If your parents bring you up saying that it's not right to be or do something, can you blame them for listening to their parents? Besides, Zach apologized for it on the after show and from what I can see, has had nothing but good things to say about Sam. It wasn't right to say, but he knows he f'd up and apologized. If he was homophobic, I doubt he'd have wanted to room with Sam, nor would he have only good things to say about her now.
[QUOTE=Balmont;284754]So you believe religion automatically makes something valid. So you believe slavery and rape are okay as a valid viewpoint? So you believe the execution of boys is okay as a valid viewpoint?[/QUOTE]
Based on every gay pride parade I have seen footage of, I think people demean themselves with the way they dress and act. I wouldn't want to go to one. Has nothing to do with their sexuality but because the people look like freaking idiots. Wouldn't have a problem with an equality march though because the footage of the ones I have seen didn't include neon pink chaps and middle-aged men in costumes a 3 year old girl would pick out. Don't like going to the beach during Spring Break where straight people act like idiots either, so I guess I am also heterophobic by your standards as well if that be the case.
Homophobia includes hatred or fear. I don't hate or fear homosexuals so I would appreciate it if you would stop acting like I am some sort of ******* just because I don't jump on the bandwagon of an agenda that is not mine and understand why others might not as well whether I agree with their take or not. I am sure the ASPCA hates me too because I don't weep and send them money every time I see one of those sad puppy commercials.
[QUOTE=Nightwolf;284760]So what if he's a grown man? If your parents bring you up saying that it's not right to be or do something, can you blame them for listening to their parents? Besides, Zach apologized for it on the after show and from what I can see, has had nothing but good things to say about Sam. It wasn't right to say, but he knows he f'd up and apologized. If he was homophobic, I doubt he'd have wanted to room with Sam, nor would he have only good things to say about her now.[/QUOTE]
I agree with you, he doesn't seem homophobic to me. I don't like him for his attitude (not just about gays, but in general) but I just think he has learned life in a certain way and that can be hard to change from. We can't all just change our beliefs just like that. It takes time.
[QUOTE=FishHooks;284792]Based on every gay pride parade I have seen footage of, I think people demean themselves with the way they dress and act. I wouldn't want to go to one. Has nothing to do with their sexuality but because the people look like freaking idiots. Wouldn't have a problem with an equality march though because the footage of the ones I have seen didn't include neon pink chaps and middle-aged men in costumes a 3 year old girl would pick out. Don't like going to the beach during Spring Break where straight people act like idiots either, so I guess I am also heterophobic by your standards as well if that be the case.
Homophobia includes hatred or fear. I don't hate or fear homosexuals so I would appreciate it if you would stop acting like I am some sort of ******* just because I don't jump on the bandwagon of an agenda that is not mine and understand why others might not as well whether I agree with their take or not. I am sure the ASPCA hates me too because I don't weep and send them money every time I see one of those sad puppy commercials.[/QUOTE]
Great post dude, I was just about to type something similar to this
Like others have said, I see where Zach is coming from, and it seems like there are some ppl that are just out to make him be the villain... Yeah what he said was bad, but he also apologized for it, and is rooming with Sam. I feel his issue with Frank is more about his belligerent behavior than it is about his sexuality. Also, Frank even when he's not angry and a jerk, seems like he'd be annoying. That whole "Nate GRABBED your face?!?! Not cool with me!!!" was a bit much. And that scene where he was wearing that dress with Sam, just seemed like he did it because he knew the editors would air it.
I don't like ppl who crave attention, and Frank seems like that type of person.
[QUOTE=Nightwolf;284760]So what if he's a grown man? If your parents bring you up saying that it's not right to be or do something, can you blame them for listening to their parents? Besides, Zach apologized for it on the after show and from what I can see, has had nothing but good things to say about Sam. It wasn't right to say, but he knows he f'd up and apologized. If he was homophobic, I doubt he'd have wanted to room with Sam, nor would he have only good things to say about her now.[/QUOTE]
He apologized when forced into a corner and not out of the 'goodness of his heart' if you will. He should have apologized after the incident happened, not months later. He often takes a cowardly approach with dealing with just about every situation he has faced on the show.
Instead of being a man and talking (apologizing) to Sam for example, he throws out his trademark ' I'm not going to talk to Sam (or anyone not named Ashley) unless they say something to me first'. I get he's is introverted, but that doesn't give him the right to be an a**. Again his is an adult and not a child.
Secondly, just because someone is raised a certain way doesn't mean he/she is incapable of developing his/her own ideas, principles and the like. My issue(s) with Zach isn't whether or not he should be open to gays, change his beliefs, etc..., but to act, at the very least, like a decent human being.
He can't jump on Frank for the way he has acted around the girls and days later, treat Sam, who is a girl, like crap.
[QUOTE=jase1;284811]He apologized when forced into a corner and not out of the 'goodness of his heart' if you will. He should have apologized after the incident happened, not months later. He often takes a cowardly approach with dealing with just about every situation he has faced on the show.
Instead of being a man and talking (apologizing) to Sam for example, he throws out his trademark ' I'm not going to talk to Sam (or anyone not named Ashley) unless they say something to me first'. I get he's is introverted, but that doesn't give him the right to be an a**. Again his is an adult and not a child.
Secondly, just because someone is raised a certain way doesn't mean he/she is incapable of developing his/her own ideas, principles and the like. My issue(s) with Zach isn't whether or not he should be open to gays, change his beliefs, etc..., but to act, at the very least, like a decent human being.
He can't jump on Frank for the way he has acted around the girls and days later, treat Sam, who is a girl, like *********]
His apology looked pretty real to me. And how do we know that he didn't apologize at a later point in time on the show that wasn't seen? He also may not have realized how bad he acted until he saw it on tv. Again, I'm not trying to make Zach look like a good guy, I just think that some people are trying to find ways to make him look worse than he does.
[QUOTE=FishHooks;284792]Based on every gay pride parade I have seen footage of, I think people demean themselves with the way they dress and act. I wouldn't want to go to one. Has nothing to do with their sexuality but because the people look like freaking idiots. Wouldn't have a problem with an equality march though because the footage of the ones I have seen didn't include neon pink chaps and middle-aged men in costumes a 3 year old girl would pick out. Don't like going to the beach during Spring Break where straight people act like idiots either, so I guess I am also heterophobic by your standards as well if that be the case.
Homophobia includes hatred or fear. I don't hate or fear homosexuals so I would appreciate it if you would stop acting like I am some sort of ******* just because I don't jump on the bandwagon of an agenda that is not mine and understand why others might not as well whether I agree with their take or not. I am sure the ASPCA hates me too because I don't weep and send them money every time I see one of those sad puppy commercials.[/QUOTE]
If you are going to quote people, why don't you respond to the quote. Instead every time it is you jumping back to the only thing being considered in the discussion of Zach is him not wanting to go to Pride. I guess it is easier for your defense of Zach than attempting a defense of his "joke" to Sam (the primary thing being discussed by those attacking Zach) or his vile conversation with Nate in the car. Not only do you go to the same tired refrain (ignoring that almost all the commentary is about Zach's vile homobic joke) but you ignore Zach's primary reason against attending which is, as he stated on the phone, that he has a problem supporting a parade where gays in the military will be marching because he is against that (which means he is against gays having equal rights). Sorry but when you say you are against gays having equal rights you are displaying hatred.
By the way, I have been to plenty of Gay Pride parades. Granted I don't have the profound knowledge of watching footage on the 700 Club as it talks about the horrors of homosexuality but I still think I will take attending them as more evidence of how they are. A few can get over the top but most are laidback and not over the top. But that is neither here or there because Zach specifically made it clear it was about homosexuality and gays military members marching.
As for whether you would be heterophobic, if you refused to go to an event because it was too rowdy or sexual for your tastes of course not. However if you refused to go to an event because straight people from the military were marching and you think straight people should not be in the military - yes you would be heterophobic.
[QUOTE=Nightwolf;284813]His apology looked pretty real to me. And how do we know that he didn't apologize at a later point in time on the show that wasn't seen? He also may not have realized how bad he acted until he saw it on tv. Again, I'm not trying to make Zach look like a good guy, I just think that some people are trying to find ways to make him look worse than he does.[/QUOTE]
Hopefully he did apologize at some point and maybe that will be revealed. He seems to be his own worse enemy without much help from others (on the show/posting on this message board).
Honestly, aside from Priscilla, the rest of them have acted a little childish, weird, etc.. I know I couldn't stand living with them beyond a day or two at the most.
[QUOTE=Balmont;284737]
Challengefan, thanks for explaining how not supporting the rights of homosexuals does not mean hatred to the LGBT community. Yep, nothing says tolerance like telling someone that their sexuality is something sick, dirty, repellent and wrong (and that they do not deserve the same basic rights as you) but that you will allow them to be your friend (as long as they don't bring up that horrible part of themselves).[/QUOTE]
Thank you for skimming my post without recognizing what I was saying. I don't think you need to tolerate everything about a person in order to like them. I've had plenty of people tell me that they hate Christians, and while I'm Christian, I have no need to take offense. Because Christianity doesn't define who I am as a whole. I have had tons of people tell me how disgusted they are with Mixed Martial Arts, and while a huge portion of my life is dedicated towards it, I need not take offense. Because I am way too complex of an individual to be identified solely but 2 aspects of my life. So while I do not support homosexuality itself I find myself regularly getting along with homosexuals.
[QUOTE=Balmont;284814]If you are going to quote people, why don't you respond to the quote. Instead every time it is you jumping back to the only thing being considered in the discussion of Zach is him not wanting to go to Pride. I guess it is easier for your defense of Zach than attempting a defense of his "joke" to Sam (the primary thing being discussed by those attacking Zach) or his vile conversation with Nate in the car. Not only do you go to the same tired refrain (ignoring that almost all the commentary is about Zach's vile homobic joke) but you ignore Zach's primary reason against attending which is, as he stated on the phone, that he has a problem supporting a parade where gays in the military will be marching because he is against that (which means he is against gays having equal rights). Sorry but when you say you are against gays having equal rights you are displaying hatred.
By the way, I have been to plenty of Gay Pride parades. Granted I don't have the profound knowledge of watching footage on the 700 Club as it talks about the horrors of homosexuality but I still think I will take attending them as more evidence of how they are. A few can get over the top but most are laidback and not over the top. But that is neither here or there because Zach specifically made it clear it was about homosexuality and gays military members marching.
As for whether you would be heterophobic, if you refused to go to an event because it was too rowdy or sexual for your tastes of course not. However if you refused to go to an event because straight people from the military were marching and you think straight people should not be in the military - yes you would be heterophobic.[/QUOTE]
You have assumed so much about me and my positions it is laughable. I am not defending Zach. I don't like him. Sam and Priscilla are the only 2 on this season I do like. You throw all these stereotypes at me because you assume I am some religious zealot. Never watched the 700 Club and don't go to church unless there is a casket or bride and groom in the front. What I do however is recognize that some people don't agree with me and acknowledge they can come from a different point of view. All I have been doing is pointing out that all this over-reaching pro-gay rhetoric comes across like some think we should have a rainbow flag flying above our American flag. I don't comment on the Sam thing because I missed that part of the show and I can never understand what Zach says in his phone scenes so I, at least, try not to argue from positions of complete ignorance.
[QUOTE=Balmont;284814]If you are going to quote people, why don't you respond to the quote. Instead every time it is you jumping back to the only thing being considered in the discussion of Zach is him not wanting to go to Pride. I guess it is easier for your defense of Zach than attempting a defense of his "joke" to Sam (the primary thing being discussed by those attacking Zach) or his vile conversation with Nate in the car. Not only do you go to the same tired refrain (ignoring that almost all the commentary is about Zach's vile homobic joke) but you ignore Zach's primary reason against attending which is, as he stated on the phone, that he has a problem supporting a parade where gays in the military will be marching because he is against that (which means he is against gays having equal rights). Sorry but when you say you are against gays having equal rights you are displaying hatred.
As for whether you would be heterophobic, if you refused to go to an event because it was too rowdy or sexual for your tastes of course not. However if you refused to go to an event because straight people from the military were marching and you think straight people should not be in the military - yes you would be heterophobic.[/QUOTE]
I interpreted Zach's conversation with Brock in a completely different way. I thought that he was against the idea of going to this Pride parade because in-his-face homosexuality makes him uncomfortable, but he didn't want to offend/not support the military...so he called up his military friend to get his take on the situation. Maybe I'm totally wrong on that...I don't remember him explicitly saying that he's against gays in the military, just that the idea of a Pride parade in general made him uncomfortable.
It just sucks that just because you don't like something and prefer to not be around it you're labeled a homophobic *******. I don't like and don't prefer to be around a lot of things, so what? I don't have a problem with gay people being allowed to get married but I still don't want to go to a Pride festival or watch two dudes make out. Just like I don't really want to watch an obese person eat a Big Mac, or watch synchronized swimming but nobody freaks out about that. Why should people HAVE to like and accept everything about each other? I'm not going to hate you, or beat you up, or infringe on your rights...but that doesn't mean I have to be all rah-rah about your lifestyle, ya know?
Like others have said, Zach has said a few ridiculous things (and his comment to Sam was inexcusable), but he hasn't come right out and hated on Sam and Frank's lifestyle. He's only said it freaks him out and makes him uncomfortable. So what?! The one who's really doing the most hating is Frank, with all his remarks about Zach's lifestyle on the show and on Twitter.
Pages