[QUOTE=wutzrenzi;284325]I don't really pay Frank any mind, he's irritating too.. But no one is irked by Zach's personality at all?[/QUOTE]
I don't like either of them...I just dislike Frank more. I agree with Sam and unfortunately Frank that Zach should've been aware of what he was coming into. No, the contract doesn't say you HAVE to learn from your roommates, but at least make an attempt. At the same time we haven't, up to this point, seen Zach actually take shots at Frank over his sexuality and yet Frank tries to make that the issue. He wants to play the victim card, yet I've looked at his twitter and he takes a lot of shots at Zach about his lifestyle. Neither the life of a homosexual man who is discovering himself nor the conservative midwest cowboy lifestyle is wrong. Either one of them pushing their lifestyle on the other would bother me, and Frank is the guiltier party in that respect IMO.
I would also like Frank a lot more if he had some balls when dealing with Zach. He's very brave on these tide report things and on twitter but he was pretty obviously scared to get involved with Sam putting up the flags and stuff in their room. Then when he's face to face with the kid he plays the "I'm joking card" or the "I'm so much smarter than all of you, I went to Middlebury" card. Congrats on your liberal arts degree bro, it is clearly serving you well.
So now it goes:
On a scale of 1-10 of how much i like the cast 10 being love 1 being hate.
Frank- 2
Sam- 8
Nate- 7
Zach- 1
Ashely- 0
Priscilla- Who?
Alexandra- 6
And I thought the casting for DC was a little off...it's like they put the potential cast members names into a hat and drew them out hoping it would work.
I feel like the dailies would've really helped me out with this season. I just don't feel connected to anyone and the dailies always show more sides to the cast. We'd actually know what Ashley, Priscilla, and Alexandra's personalities are. We'd probably actually see Zach and Frank getting along that the editors cut out just for story line effect.
[QUOTE=jesses_girl;284334]I feel like the dailies would've really helped me out with this season. I just don't feel connected to anyone and the dailies always show more sides to the cast. We'd actually know what Ashley, Priscilla, and Alexandra's personalities are. We'd probably actually see Zach and Frank getting along that the editors cut out just for story line effect.[/QUOTE]
Yeah I agree, I also feel like this season would have benefited from 30min episodes
[QUOTE=fabulous788;284333]And I thought the casting for DC was a little off...it's like they put the potential cast members names into a hat and drew them out hoping it would work.[/QUOTE]
Even Josh and Erika got some camera time by episode 5. Priscilla, Ashley, and Alex are just place holders lol
[QUOTE=JL81790;284329]I don't like either of them...I just dislike Frank more. I agree with Sam and unfortunately Frank that Zach should've been aware of what he was coming into. No, the contract doesn't say you HAVE to learn from your roommates, but at least make an attempt. At the same time we haven't, up to this point, seen Zach actually take shots at Frank over his sexuality and yet Frank tries to make that the issue. He wants to play the victim card, yet I've looked at his twitter and he takes a lot of shots at Zach about his lifestyle. Neither the life of a homosexual man who is discovering himself nor the conservative midwest cowboy lifestyle is wrong. Either one of them pushing their lifestyle on the other would bother me, and Frank is the guiltier party in that respect IMO.
I would also like Frank a lot more if he had some balls when dealing with Zach. He's very brave on these tide report things and on twitter but he was pretty obviously scared to get involved with Sam putting up the flags and stuff in their room. Then when he's face to face with the kid he plays the "I'm joking card" or the "I'm so much smarter than all of you, I went to Middlebury" card. Congrats on your liberal arts degree bro, it is clearly serving you well.[/QUOTE]
Agreed. And aside from their beef and this whole gay vs homophobe debate: Zach is so bland and full of himself. We don't care if you're bigger than everyone, attractive and so on, bring something else to the table and stop [I]tooting your own horn[/I] dude. He also comes off insensitive rather than sarcastic because he's so dull and sluggish to me. His stance and body language in confessionals annoys me too.
[QUOTE=wutzrenzi;284325]I don't really pay Frank any mind, he's irritating too.. But no one is irked by Zach's personality at all?[/QUOTE]
Looking back it seems as if Zach is receiving the most rips followed by Frank when it comes to those two (not going by quantity of posts but quantity of people - a person posting 6 posts ripping on Frank is still counted as one person). That said, Ashley is up there too but it seems as if she is more seen as a shadow with no mind of her own.
As far as the members of the show being Team Frank, I don't consider that a surprise. While Frank is immature, whiny, prone to tantrums, and takes way too much personal, there is a vulnerability there and a sensitivity to others. Such drama can get annoying but it can also, in person, be something that pulls a person in.
Zach meanwhile comes across as personality free for the most part. The exception is the homophobia which is somewhat shocking even for a reality show dealing with young people. One knows it exists but to see it demonstrated in the car and in the comment to Sam tonight is still something that shakes one up. Zach closes himself to anything out of his comfort zone, does not seem intelligent, and such people are not appealing to be around unless one lacks in any want for intellectual stimulus. The only people I can see warming to Zach are those sexually attracted based on his looks and men who also want their masculine codes reinforced. The same goes for Zach. He contacts Brock to have his masculine codes affirmed. I have a hard time seeing Zach really bond with any of the other housemates except Ashley.
Nate was the other straight guy but Nate recognizes his flaws. Unlike Zach, Nate ponders his actions. Nate is willing to admit he is wrong and wants to be a more thoughtful person. While Nate may kid around with Zach and look up to the alpha male archetype of Zach, such worship tends to have a point where the person doing the worship notices that they were too busy focusing on the surface.
In the end, someone like Nate will find Frank, Sam, or Priscilla fare more intriguing. Nate is too inquisitive and too aware of his own actions not to.
I don't see Zach and Ashley as worthless human beings. I know some sites are stating Zach is the worst Real World person ever and talking about him as if he is a monster. I like to think Zach is just the most immature of the bunch. Now that may seem surprising but the actions (the tendency to walk away, the tendency to put down people behind their back, the attacks on sexual orientation, the comments which I no longer buy as being accidental, etc.) show me someone who has a worldview ingrained into them and an unwillingness to question that worldview or engage others with one's worldview. That is part of growing up though.
One of the things thrown around is Zach should not have to go to Gay Pride. I agree that he shouldn't have to. That said, sometimes things are a bit more complex. Sam and Frank have no problem attending events which have a predominantly heterosexual vibe. When it comes down to it, what is the difference?
Sam had a great moment near the end with her speech. She was right. What Zach was doing was engaging in a repudiation of Sam's humanity. It had started for her with the horrific beat the gay out of her comment (a joke laced with anti-gay hostility). The culmination was Zach and Ashley's rejection of being there for Sam's event. Zach's reasoning is more than flawed - it is nonexistent. My Uncle on my Dad's side refused to attend my Dad's wedding because my Dad married someone outside of my Dad's family's faith. The defense of Zach's behavior reminds me of the defense used then - that it is Zach's right, Zach is uncomfortable so why should he go, it doesn't mean Zach is bad, Sam and Frank need to get over it. One could say well that is different since it is family. However these are 7 roommates who are sharing this experience. So for one to show disrespect for the other's being is a significant thing.
So yes Zach does not need to go but it does not show him in a good light to say the least (especially taking his other actions into count). Zach is not only not a smart person but someone who confuses what he thinks are codes of masculinity (shooting guns, being able to beat someone up, rejecting debate to his worldview - none of which are codes of masculinity) with what it really is to be an adult. One of the interesting bits is that when Zach is challenged on any level his response is I can beat you up.
As annoying as Frank and Zach can be though I find Ashley to be the most troubling. There is something unsettling about such blanket subservience and such superficiality. She is the hardest person to write about because it is sad to see someone act like she does.
One of the problems with the show through the years is it focuses on casting a few shallow good looking people so they can predictably hook up with each other. Yes they will date (Danny and Melinda) but darn they are a bore.
Anyways overlooked are two wonderful scenes - Nate's empathetic treatment of Sam in the bed and Nate being tricked into the old clapping gag.
Some people's religious and/or cultural beliefs are every bit as much of their identity as a gay person's sexuality is to them. For people on the left to try to impose their values on others is just as ludicrous as people on the right trying to convince gays that they can change their sexuality. Rather than agree to disagree, Frank just keeps harping and needs to let it go as he'll never change Zach.
[QUOTE=FishHooks;284345]Some people's religious and/or cultural beliefs are every bit as much of their identity as a gay person's sexuality is to them. [B]For people on the left to try to impose their values on others is just as ludicrous as people on the right trying to convince gays that they can change their sexuality[/B]. Rather than agree to disagree, Frank just keeps harping and needs to let it go as he'll never change Zach.[/QUOTE]
That is NOT the same thing.
[QUOTE=FishHooks;284345]Some people's religious and/or cultural beliefs are every bit as much of their identity as a gay person's sexuality is to them. [B]For people on the left to try to impose their values on others is just as ludicrous as people on the right trying to convince gays that they can change their sexuality. [/B]Rather than agree to disagree, Frank just keeps harping and needs to let it go as he'll never change Zach.[/QUOTE]
Sorry but that is not the same. To compare two people taking pride in their identity (Frank's pride coming out, as he said, due to Sam's example) to people who wish to convert other people's sexuality is offensive beyond belief. If in the next episode, Sam and Frank reveal their desire to turn Zach gay let me know. I think you will be disappointed though.
I felt like this was pretty quality episode. Sam's little speech about standing up gave me a smile there have been only a few I can recall in the RW/Challenge shows I have seen, the most impressive being Eve's on the Island.
Ashley came off looking bad this episode.
I said this a week or two ago and I feel even stronger about it now.
[QUOTE=Calinks;282296]I really get the impression that Ashley is pretty much falling in line with what Zach does. If Zach wanted to go to the gay bar and was excited I feel like Ashly would have too. If Zach wanted to understand Frank or accept him, I feel like Ashly would too. There isn't much evidence to this but it's the feeling I get. She seems to be mirroring his behavior to a degree. I also feel like Nate has done this to a lesser extent.[/QUOTE]
Seems like she wants Zach so bad she is mimicking his behavior in hopes of getting closer to him. He doesn't seem nearly as interested romantically, she may be in the friend zone. In all their interactions she definitely takes the subservient role, just watch them together. I think she is trying to impress but behavior like that often backfires when it is done in hopes of kindling a romantic relationship.
I think if Zach and Ashley showed interest in Frank and Sam on a friendly level or engaged in ANY activity with them, it wouldn't have been a big deal. I can't speak for Frank since he seems to be a drama queen, but if Zach and Sam or Ashley and Sam were close and talked and did stuff together, I can't see her being that upset if they were like "You know I love you and we're friends. I care about you, but I just can't attend something like that because it makes me feel uncomfortable." I would have LOVED to see Zach and Ashley on the Brooklyn season. Would they have opposed to participate in the event to honor a gay man who died of AIDS? Out of all the "alpha male" types they've had on the show, Zach is by far the dumbest, most close-minded, and above all else, homophobic.
From the top of my head the guys that had the most reservations to the LGBT community have been Alton, Derrick (if we include Road Rules), Leroy, MJ, Theo (Chicago), Stephen (Denver), & Jon (Los Angeles). MOST, if not all, of them learned to be accepting and even made the effort to get to know their roommates for who they are and put aside their sexuality. And even people like Johnny, Kenny, Dan (RR Viewer's Revenge), Wes, Landon, Tyrie, Mark, Syrus, David (Seattle), Miz, Brad, and many others have shown to have the same "alpha male" stereotype but have shown from the beginning that sexuality doesn't matter to them and have shown some sort of support. Brad's "You don't throw the race card, you don't throw the gay card..." Johnny participating in the gay parade in Key West, Kenny sleeping in the same bed with Ryan, Tyrie defending Davis on Inferno 3, David letting a drag queen kiss him at a bar, etc. shows that they've had this stereotype on the show since the beginning but they just happened to choose someone who is completed set in their ways and has NO interest in learning or changing.
[QUOTE=InfamousJoks;284346]That is NOT the same thing.[/QUOTE]
How is it different? Zach isn't trying to get them to not be gay, he just isn't supporting them the way they think he should. He has his reasons for not wanting to go to gay clubs and they have their reasons for wanting to go. How is their desires for him somehow more right than his desires for himself?
[QUOTE=Balmont;284343]One of the things thrown around is Zach should not have to go to Gay Pride. I agree that he shouldn't have to. That said, sometimes things are a bit more complex. Sam and Frank have no problem attending events which have a predominantly heterosexual vibe. When it comes down to it, what is the difference?[/QUOTE]
There's a difference between an event that celebrates homosexuality and an event that is attended by predominately heterosexual people.
[QUOTE=FishHooks;284352]How is it different? Zach isn't trying to get them to not be gay, he just isn't supporting them the way they think he should. He has his reasons for not wanting to go to gay clubs and they have their reasons for wanting to go. How is their desires for him somehow more right than his desires for himself?[/QUOTE]
I'm too lazy to argue, but telling someone to try to except the gay culture is nowhere near the same as telling a gay person that they have to be straight.
[QUOTE=FishHooks;284352]How is it different? Zach isn't trying to get them to not be gay, he just isn't supporting them the way they think he should. He has his reasons for not wanting to go to gay clubs and they have their reasons for wanting to go. How is their desires for him somehow more right than his desires for himself?[/QUOTE]
Yeah I kinda see where you're coming from...
Zach isn't telling Sam/Frank BE STRAIGHT!! But I sometimes feel like Frank is trying to force Zach into being accepting and open minded. It might be his approach to the situation, but I feel he is very over the top with it, whereas Sam is more laid back about it.
I think it'd be helpful if Sam just took Zach aside one on one and they each explained their beliefs/opinion to the other in a civilized sober manner...
I must also admit though, had Zach been like the "alpha males" listed above, and been all on board immediately, this season would be more lackluster than it currently is.
Haven't gotten to read through the thread as im taking a short break from writing a paper I will probably fail, just wanted to say after the episode and after show Ashley is now my favorite cast member hands down.
Had people been a lot more direct and upfront, I lot of (if not all) of these arguments/conflicts would have been resolved.
Zach and Ashley should have said to Sam and Frank that even though they didn't want to participate in any activities/events, going to clubs, etc... now or in the future; ultimately, their decision was, in no way, a rejection of Sam or Frank as a human being or their lifestyle.
While that may have been a bit hurtful to hear, at least they would have been honest. There are ways of maintaining your beliefs/morals by being both respectful and tactful to others and their feelings.
Instead, Zach and Ashley offer up wishy washy answers that can easily been taken the wrong way. So every time Sam and Frank ask Zach and Ashley if they want to join them for whatever, whatever answer they get back comes across as cold and somewhat hurtful/hateful. In addition, it 'MAY' appear that Sam and Frank are trying to force their beliefs onto others when that isn't their intent I believe.
Sorry, but I don't buy excuses like their young, are from the Midwest (so am I), conservative (so am I) as reasons for saying/doing stupid stuff. Maybe if you're a drunk and/or a drug addict, but anyone is an ADULT and they need to act like one.
[QUOTE=Balmont;284347]Sorry but that is not the same. To compare two people taking pride in their identity (Frank's pride coming out, as he said, due to Sam's example) to people who wish to convert other people's sexuality is offensive beyond belief. If in the next episode, Sam and Frank reveal their desire to turn Zach gay let me know. I think you will be disappointed though.[/QUOTE]
Frank is constantly saying how Zach SHOULD do this and do that. How is it not the same thing? Zach doesn't have to support anything he's not passionate about. And Frank nor Sam can make him, simple as that. But Frank is constantly bringing up crap saying "You didn't go to this gay club" and "You said this and that", and Zach's response was "Yup, so?". That should be the end of that conversation imo. But Frank wants to keep pressing the issue.
[QUOTE=InfamousJoks;284355]I'm too lazy to argue, but telling someone to try to except the gay culture is nowhere near the same as telling a gay person that they have to be straight.[/QUOTE]
Who's telling who to be straight though? I don't think i've heard Zach say that.
[QUOTE=jesses_girl;284362]Who's telling who to be straight though? I don't think i've heard Zach say that.[/QUOTE]
He didn't. I'm responding to what FishHooks posted earlier.
Moving on...
I think it's sad when the aftershow has more "action" than the actual episode.
There is more to people than sexuality, but apparently not for these 3 or so episodes
I think [B]Frank[/B] and [B]Sam[/B] both have the potential to be interesting, genuine, likeable castmates if they would show more sides of them, instead of this long debate about acceptance and sexuality, and if Frank would take things more calmly (he did improve this episode somewhat).
[B]Alexandrea[/B] also could add a lot to the season based on her history, but instead it's "Why wouldn't you just hold my hand..like..I just wanted to hold your hand"
I have a good feeling about [B]Priscilla[/B], that she'll actually get some airtime and maybe add some interest.
[B]Zach,[/B] [B]Ashley[/B], and [B]Nate[/B] are all duds in my opinion. Nate is okay, but his "funny guy" persona isn't all that funny.. at all.
Zach's probably the only person from this cast that will do anything on the challenges later on and be a force. I don't think Frank could be around a lot of the people on the challenges without blowing his lid, and all of the girls are dubs. I just wonder if Sam went on a challenge, if she would compete against guys or girls since she always wants to be one of the guys.
Anyone else think Ashley and Zach's relationship is really one sided? Like, she talks about how something is going on but we never see Zach really say anything or show any real romantic interest. It looks like she's the friend who wants to be more and he's the guy who's looking over her. I wonder if he hooks up with any women this season.
[QUOTE=InfamousJoks;284355]I'm too lazy to argue, but telling someone to try to except the gay culture is nowhere near the same as telling a gay person that they have to be straight.[/QUOTE]
To some people, their God and his anti-gay rules are just as real and unchangeable to them as the planets and the stars and they see homosexuality as a wrong choice. To gays, sexual orientation is not a choice but religious beliefs are, The two sides will never agree no matter how many Pottery Barn vases Frank smashes, and as someone pointed out in an earlier thread, Frank himself was freaked out by the prospects of going to a gay club his first time. He of all people should get where Zach and Ashley are coming from and stop being so over the top confrontational about it.
[QUOTE=Calinks;284368]Anyone else think Ashley and Zach's relationship is really one sided? Like, she talks about how something is going on but we never see Zach really say anything or show any real romantic interest. It looks like she's the friend who wants to be more and he's the guy who's looking over her. I wonder if he hooks up with any women this season.[/QUOTE]
Imo she comes off as very clingy and insecure. Everything Zach says and does, she does. It's like she's afraid to have a mind of her own because he may not like her? Their whole relationship is starting to become repulsive to me. They walk around the house sort of in this 'I'm Better than You' attitude, or so it seems to me... which is part of why I'm starting to think the chemistry is SO off this season. None of them seem to have real, genuine, honest friendships - besides Frank and Sam.
Also, it would be nice to see Priscilla SAY SOMETHING for a change. It's so frustrating to see the camera pan to her face and she's clearly thinking something but never says anything.
[QUOTE=jesses_girl;284362]Who's telling who to be straight though? I don't think i've heard Zach say that.[/QUOTE]
Actually he does in his own special Zach way. When one tells a gay man to act like a man or threatens to beat the gay out of a lesbian or registers disgust at homosexuality on a constant basis, they are intimating the LGBT individual should change their orientation. Frank and Sam have not once expressed the same sentiments (that Zach should be gay). Frank and Sam have both basically been deeply hurt by Zach's repulsive and hateful comments, ones which attack homosexuality.
The fact that some people defend Zach's comment to Sam as just a joke or dismiss Zach's comments in the car outside the gay club and dismiss the obvious hostility that underlines these comments is a sign that maybe it is good the show focuses on this matter.
[QUOTE]Frank is constantly saying how Zach SHOULD do this and do that. How is it not the same thing? Zach doesn't have to support anything he's not passionate about. And Frank nor Sam can make him, simple as that. But Frank is constantly bringing up crap saying "You didn't go to this gay club" and "You said this and that", and Zach's response was "Yup, so?". That should be the end of that conversation imo. But Frank wants to keep pressing the issue. [/QUOTE]
When someone repeatedly shows hostility towards someone else because of race, religion, sexual orientation, the other person is going to speak up. Frank confronting Zach tonight makes perfect sense. Zach said a horrific thing to Sam that went directly at Sam's sexual orientation. I would have a problem if Frank was aware a fellow LGBT individual be attacked and said nothing.
As for Sam, there is no way to get around that Zach opened the can of worms with his disgusting "joke". Sam's behavior was someone stunned that a person felt that way towards them because of their sexual orientation and no doubt Sam kept hoping that Zach would not show it was true (that he was homophobic).
[QUOTE]To some people, their God and his anti-gay rules are just as real and unchangeable to them as the planets and the stars and they see homosexuality as a wrong choice. To gays, sexual orientation is not a choice but religious beliefs are, The two sides will never agree no matter how many Pottery Barn vases Frank smashes, and as someone pointed out in an earlier thread, Frank himself was freaked out by the prospects of going to a gay club his first time. He of all people should get where Zach and Ashley are coming from and stop being so over the top confrontational about it. [/QUOTE]
Are you saying God is anti-gay? If so, it is as repellent as the South's use of passages in the bible to defend slavery before the Civil War. Using scripture literally to give an okay to hatred or horrible practices is a shameful practice. There is no defense for homophobia and there is no defense for the disallowance of equal human rights because of one's sexual orientation. Zach can live in his cocoon and Ashley, who states she had no idea 300 gay people would be in the military, can join him. I would instead hope they grow up.
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