The Duel II: Spoiler Discussion

[QUOTE=Darock1713;40414]I know you will not reveal the total spoils, and understandably so .... but I have 4 questions which may decide to give an answer or an insight to or not. I realize I also run the risk of being joke fodder ..... but here goes (1.) From a "entertainment" standpoint overall, are the elimination rounds better or worse than Duel I? (2.) Can teams change (i.e.) if a team member's partner is eliminated in a Duel or is that person left to fend for his/herself? (3.) How many different duels are they are they determined similar to Duel I? If you are not willing to answer this question .... then at least give us your opinion on how the duels are selected. (4.) If CT was still on this challenge ..... are the duels clear cut to where he could have avoided a DQ? Better yet, how do you think Beth would have done if she was on this challenge and in similar shape to Duel I? I asked and tried to be careful as not to ask for too much?[/QUOTE] 1: I honestly don't know if these are better or worse. I disliked some of those from Duel 1, so it's hard for me to fairly evaluate what I've not yet seen. 2: I think you are probably asking at least two questions here. I don't know if one can "change teams" but certainly I can see occasions where one backs ones pre-challenge alliance rather than one's perhaps artificially determined game partner. Certainly one could be left to fend for one's self. That probably has happened. 3. There are five duels that I know of. Logic suggests they must be chosen randomly after the other participant in the duel is selected by the first person reducing the obvious advantage offered by knowing the duel before selecting one's competition. 4. If pigs could fly... CT appears like the great characters of classic literature, likable to many, yet fatally flawed at every turn. It is an interesting question about how Beth would do. She and I discussed this in the past 24 hours. It would entirely depended upon the luck of the draw. In one, Ruthie and Diem would have had a distinct advantage in agility. In another two, Beth would have won before they started. In the others, we just couldn't decide. Not many, including about half of the guys on this challenge are not as strong as Beth.

[QUOTE=V1man;40397]GW, this is not about you. It's a rant that has been building for some time. I've always felt that the last person standing deserved the money, otherwise why bother to play the game? If Evan, whom I personally loathe, wins the challenge on the men's side, I'll congratulate him. I'll hate having to do so, but it seems to me that is the price of admission. I'd be a much happier person if a friend of mine won this, but if he loses I won't ever say that he deserved to win. It reminds me of people who say person X should win Survivor or some other contest because he or she comes from a poor background and can do something good with the money, while his or her opponent is stinking rich and will likely put the money up his or her nose. It's just absurd. The winner, if all the rules or the game were followed, deserved to win, otherwise the game should only be played by those equally sick, lame and/or disenfranchised. [End of rant][/QUOTE] I agree 100%. Anyone who has followed the rules, played the game, and won, deserves the prize. The notion that somebody else deserves it as a pity prize because they have failed or come close so many times is stupid. Although Brad has performed well on numerous occasions, he has never outlasted his competition and thus won a challenge. It is his fault and not that of the person who won instead.

So, would you say that the Rookies deserved to win G3 and Johnny and Kenny deserved to win The Island? I agree with you that someone who plays the game deserves to win, but it still was hard seeing Derrick lose so many times (especially on G2) and watching so many disagreeable people win challenge after challenge. Is there any winner of a challenge who, in your opinion, DIDN'T deserve the win for some reason?

[quote=meonlyme25;40434]So, would you say that the Rookies deserved to win G3 and Johnny and Kenny deserved to win The Island? [/quote] I'm not sure where you're getting at with the Johnny and Kenny comment. Name someone that deserved to win The Island more than them... the only two names I can come up with are Derrick and Evelyn, and they won too, so it doesn't matter. Nobody else on that show deserved it more than the four that won. But this isn't the thread for this conversation. Let's stick to spoilers.

[QUOTE=meonlyme25;40434]So, would you say that the Rookies deserved to win G3 and Johnny and Kenny deserved to win The Island? I agree with you that someone who plays the game deserves to win, but it still was hard seeing Derrick lose so many times (especially on G2) and watching so many disagreeable people win challenge after challenge. Is there any winner of a challenge who, in your opinion, DIDN'T deserve the win for some reason?[/QUOTE] Of course Johnny and Kenny deserved the win from the Island. Just because one may dislike their personality does not negate the fact that they played the game and beat all the other competitors. As for the Rookies winning G3, I can see your point here, but i still think that the it is the veterans fault for not eliminating Eric. The Rookies completed the mission following al the rules, the Vets did not follow the rule about finishing as a team. Therefore, they lose. But this is more of a fluke victory which is different from what I am talking about. I am talking about when people say that Brad deserves to win Duel II because he has done well on many challenges or Derrick deserves G2 when he lost near the finals. IMO, this does not make any sense. The Rookies-Vet situation is different.

I think it would be really cool if Brad won. Or if Derrick won G2, but I think if Derrick did win G2 he wouldn't have such a large story or be a legend that he is. There are people I would like to win and people I wan't to lose. But it is true that the people who win, are the ones who deserve it. But I also think that it isn't bad to say someone deserves it. Like, imagine if you had to tryout for a sport, or a play, but someone else got picked over you. Of course you, or your friends and family, are going to say that they think you deserved it more. It's natural to think that the person you like better deserves it.

[quote=faceless;40444]I think it would be really cool if Brad won. Or if Derrick won G2, but I think if Derrick did win G2 he wouldn't have such a large story or be a legend that he is. There are people I would like to win and people I wan't to lose. But it is true that the people who win, are the ones who deserve it. But I also think that it isn't bad to say someone deserves it. Like, imagine if you had to tryout for a sport, or a play, but someone else got picked over you. Of course you, or your friends and family, are going to say that they think you deserved it more. [B]It's natural to think that the person you like better deserves it.[/B][/quote] I strongly disagree that it is "natural." To be totally blunt about it, I could call it a lack of character, or good sportsmanship or a number of other things. Saying that it is natural seem to be the weakest of all possible excuses. To each, his/her own, I guess. It may well be a generational difference -- and a good question for people to put to their grandparents. [SIZE=1][I] (For what it's worth, I do respect other points of view)[/I][/SIZE]

[QUOTE=V1man;40445][B] It may well be a generational difference -- and a good question for people to put to their grandparents[/B].[/QUOTE] I totally agree with you and I'm still in my late teens. I'm not sure its a generational thing, but who knows. I may just be the odd one out of my generation.

[quote=MrsPlumBean;40408]I'm sort of leaning towards Rachel or Aneesa having taken a few of the last eliminated girls out.[/quote] To me, it seems more like Diem and Aneesa, but Rachel could quite possibly have gone in once or twice. Pairings? Sounds very interesting. But Mark and Rachel pairing is a nice powerhouse "team."

[quote=V1man;40445]I strongly disagree that it is "natural." To be totally blunt about it, I could call it a lack of character, or good sportsmanship or a number of other things. Saying that it is natural seem to be the weakest of all possible excuses. To each, his/her own, I guess. It may well be a generational difference -- and a good question for people to put to their grandparents. [SIZE=1][I] (For what it's worth, I do respect other points of view)[/I][/SIZE][/quote] I just thought that it's normal to want the person you like to win. It's pretty pathetic to think it's natural. I'll admit it. But I thought it was natural that I thought Derrick deserved to win after his story got big and it seemed like he worked so hard. So, if I were allowed to, I would take back my comment about the natural thing, but I thought it was natural for a lot of people to think Brad deserves a win for how good of a person he is. But I guess I'm the weakest of all possible excuses.

There's no way Rachel or Jenn would have picked each other to face off in a duel. Unless there is some twist in the rules, I doubt Rachel took out Jenn. I know V1Man talked about a new partner twist but I still dont think that that would change Rachel and Jenn not wanting to pick one another. That leaves Brittini, Tori, Aneesa and Diem. Brittini has been said to have only gone into the duel against Brooke, and I cant exactly see Aneesa choosing Jenn or vica verse. They were very close on the Inferno 3. I would go with either Tori or Diem taking out Jenn. I also dont see Diem winning a faceoff though so I would go with Tori

[QUOTE=faceless;40456]I just thought that it's normal to want the person you like to win. It's pretty pathetic to think it's natural. I'll admit it. But I thought it was natural that I thought Derrick deserved to win after his story got big and it seemed like he worked so hard. So, if I were allowed to, I would take back my comment about the natural thing, but I thought it was natural for a lot of people to think Brad deserves a win for how good of a person he is. But I guess I'm the weakest of all possible excuses.[/QUOTE] I like both Brad and Derrick on a personal level, but neither on is as "nice" as their fan base tends to believe. Both are master strategists and know how and when to say the right things on TV. Brad's reunion show comments, in particular, demonstrate how much he thinks about the game. As we approach the end (with the final mission on Dec 6th), Brad is probably thinking in overdrive about how to finally leave his allies behind, assuming he's not about to be coming home as another of the Duel's victims.

[quote=V1man;40458]As we approach the end (with the final mission on Dec 6th), Brad is probably thinking in overdrive about how to finally leave his allies behind, assuming he's not about to be coming home as another of the Duel's victims.[/quote] Wow, I am shocked at how close it is to being over, and the amount of people still around. I know on the first Duel, Aneesa and CT were sent home the day before the finale, so we could have 2 more come home. But that is surprising assuming that The Duel is an individual Challenge. I honestly think, Brad will make the Finals once again.

[QUOTE=Dartagnan;40459]Wow, I am shocked at how close it is to being over, and the amou of people still around. I know on the first Duel, Aneesa and CT were sent home the day before the finale, so we could have 2 more come home. But that is surprising assuming that The Duel is an individual Challenge. I honestly think, Brad will make the Finals once again.[/QUOTE] Or four more ???

[quote=V1man;40460]Or four more ???[/quote] Are you saying something? Haha. Much better. The less the better. Four eliminations in 3 days, is a lot.

[QUOTE=Dartagnan;40461]Are you saying something? Haha. Much better. The less the better. Four eliminations in 3 days, is a lot.[/QUOTE] Just asking the question based on the number of people remaining. Too many people to have the same kind of final mission as did Duel 1.

[quote=Dartagnan;40461]Are you saying something? Haha. Much better. The less the better. Four eliminations in 3 days, is a lot.[/quote] I don't know how many more eliminations are left, but unless the Final Challenge is different, only 2 "teams" wll be competing. Now being that NZ time is ahead of US time, we don't know yet how many are enroute back to the US. As of Monday with 6M/6F left ...... I'm actually hoping that the last 4 days before the Final provide as many as 8 more duel victims levaing 2M and 2 F.

[quote=V1man;40462]Just asking the question based on the number of people remaining. Too many people to have the same kind of final mission as did Duel 1.[/quote] Oh, okay. Yes, with the remaining amount of people, there is no way to pull off the same type of final mission. Either they have changed the final mission, or they have back to back eliminations this week.

Ok this is just pure speculation (but on a spoiler so I think I'm in the right thread) about the "teams". And I know V1 said we shouldn't put too much into it but what the heck, if I'm right great if I'm not who cares, no one will remember in 4 months anyways. I think the "teams" are voluntarily chosen in the beginning of the challenge by the players. (Otherwise a Mark-Rachel team would have to be the best fate in the world.....I need some of that kind of luck!) I think that the challenges are competed as a 2 person team (sort of like Fresh Meat), then the winning team is immune (possibly why Brittini has only gone into one duel) with the winning team picking the next team to save and so on until one team is left. The last chosen team then picks from the remaining teams and here is where the individual competition comes into play. The boys then go into a duel and the girls go into a duel (possibly back to back and both eliminations happen at the same time as a result of the same challenge.) Whoever wins boy and girl, are then paired together whether they were original partners or they are paired with the other player who beat their partner. The losing players are then sent home together and onto the next challenge. This also could explain why Brittini has only gone into one duel because even though she may be an "easy" or "logical" target (not saying she is just saying what the vets might think) whatever girl would want to go against her would have to convince her partner to take on Landon, who seems to be one of the best fit male competitors. Could also explain why Kim was picked so much, if she was paired with a weaker male (which is possible since she is new and most of the vets who are strong stick to vets). Could explain how either Aneesa or Rachel could have been forced to go against Jen (and presumably take her out) if their male partner wanted to go against Derek. Could explain Paula and Dunbar going home together (lost as a team to a stronger team). And could explain how someone like Ruthie went home so early, as many people have suggested she could possibly have been an outsider with the other vets and therefor been paired with a weaker male and could have been thrown in early on. Sooo.....just a thought and sorry if I didn't make sense, it all makes sense in my head but sometimes I don't explain things very well.

[quote=ChalngeJunki;40474]Ok this is just pure speculation (but on a spoiler so I think I'm in the right thread) about the "teams". ..... And could explain how someone like Ruthie went home so early, as many people have suggested she could possibly have been an outsider with the other vets and therefor been paired with a weaker male and could have been thrown in early on. Sooo.....just a thought and sorry if I didn't make sense, it all makes sense in my head but sometimes I don't explain things very well.[/quote] FYI -- Ruthie was in a four person alliance and it failed her.

[QUOTE]I like both Brad and Derrick on a personal level, but neither on is as "nice" as their fan base tends to believe. Both are master strategists and know how and when to say the right things on TV.[/QUOTE] I'm imagining Brad rubbing his hands together in a villainous way. It'd be funny if he decided to hook up with Tori after finding out about her crush from Beth in order to have an alliance with someone on the other team, and then ended up falling for her. Actually, add a bet gone wrong and it'd be straight out of the plot of a bad teen romance movie. Seriously though, if either Brad or Derrick [I]didn't[/I] know what they were doing at this point, I'd worry about them. They've certainly done enough of these to know the ropes. And I think both men are a lot smarter and sharper than they are given credit for. It'll be interesting to see if the additional burden/challenge of trying to keep Tori in also (assuming that he is) influenced Brad's strategy during this challenge. Tori's a smart girl, but I don't know that she has enough experience doing these challenges to set up a foundation for herself to make it far in the game. I remember Beth once saying that Tori might have too much integrity to do well on a challenge. [QUOTE]This also could explain why Brittini has only gone into one duel because even though she may be an "easy" or "logical" target (not saying she is just saying what the vets might think) whatever girl would want to go against her would have to convince her partner to take on Landon, who seems to be one of the best fit male competitors.[/QUOTE] Great theory, but one problem--we know that Landon went into the duel against Isaac. We know that Brittini is his partner, but Brittini didn't go into the duel against Ruthie. Kim did. So the four people in those duels were Landon, Isaac, Ruthie, and Kim, and that doesn't follow the pattern. Mark and Rachel seem like a juggernaut of a team.

[quote=MrsPlumBean;40476] Tori's a smart girl, but I don't know that she has enough experience doing these challenges to set up a foundation for herself to make it far in the game. I remember Beth once saying that Tori might have too much integrity to do well on a challenge. Great theory, but one problem--we know that Landon went into the duel against Isaac. We know that Brittini is his partner, but Brittini didn't go into the duel against Ruthie. Kim did. So the four people in those duels were Landon, Isaac, Ruthie, and Kim, and that doesn't follow the pattern. Mark and Rachel seem like a juggernaut of a team.[/quote] Agreed. Tori is one of my favorites, but her experience level, and loyalty doesn't fare to well, because a lot of politics is what gets you far most of the time. A good strategy and great mindplay can take you to the end every time. I agree. At first I thought it was good too, until I realized the pattern is mixed up. Unless, a team loses and each person picks someone of their own, not necessarily a team. Ex.:Issac picks Landon, Ruthie picks Kim Mark and Rachel might as well be one of the best pairings. Combination of brains, brawns, and social strength/experience.

[quote=Dartagnan;40478]Agreed. Tori is one of my favorites, but her experience level, and loyalty doesn't fare to well, because a lot of politics is what gets you far most of the time. A good strategy and great mindplay can take you to the end every time. I agree. At first I thought it was good too, until I realized the pattern is mixed up. Unless, a team loses and each person picks someone of their own, not necessarily a team. Ex.:Issac picks Landon, Ruthie picks Kim Mark and Rachel might as well be one of the best pairings. Combination of brains, brawns, and social strength/experience.[/quote] Game and mental play along with social smarts can really be a tough combination to beat. Mark and Rachel definitely can make it to the end and win in the final challenge but honestly anyone could, it's up in the air as we don't know what factors could come into play.

I hope I don't regret these words in May, but I am convinced that this final week in New Zealand may be the best week in challenge history.

[quote=V1man;40494]I hope I don't regret these words in May, but I am convinced that this final week in New Zealand may be the best week in challenge history.[/quote] I agree.. However I bet you know something we dont know!

[quote=ejborys22;40495]I agree.. However I bet you know something we dont know![/quote] Yeah he pretty much does and probably won't tell us why but yeah this challenge sounds like it was intense in many different ways.

[QUOTE=ejborys22;40495]I agree.. However I bet you know something we dont know![/QUOTE] Yes, but I don't know a single thing that is not consistent with my last statement above (and they are small things, really; but, the devil is in the details...).

[quote=ChalngeJunki;40474]Ok this is just pure speculation (but on a spoiler so I think I'm in the right thread) about the "teams". And I know V1 said we shouldn't put too much into it but what the heck, if I'm right great if I'm not who cares, no one will remember in 4 months anyways. I think the "teams" are voluntarily chosen in the beginning of the challenge by the players. (Otherwise a Mark-Rachel team would have to be the best fate in the world.....I need some of that kind of luck!) I think that the challenges are competed as a 2 person team (sort of like Fresh Meat), then the winning team is immune (possibly why Brittini has only gone into one duel) with the winning team picking the next team to save and so on until one team is left. The last chosen team then picks from the remaining teams and here is where the individual competition comes into play. The boys then go into a duel and the girls go into a duel (possibly back to back and both eliminations happen at the same time as a result of the same challenge.) Whoever wins boy and girl, are then paired together whether they were original partners or they are paired with the other player who beat their partner. The losing players are then sent home together and onto the next challenge. This also could explain why Brittini has only gone into one duel because even though she may be an "easy" or "logical" target (not saying she is just saying what the vets might think) whatever girl would want to go against her would have to convince her partner to take on Landon, who seems to be one of the best fit male competitors. Could also explain why Kim was picked so much, if she was paired with a weaker male (which is possible since she is new and most of the vets who are strong stick to vets). Could explain how either Aneesa or Rachel could have been forced to go against Jen (and presumably take her out) if their male partner wanted to go against Derek. Could explain Paula and Dunbar going home together (lost as a team to a stronger team). And could explain how someone like Ruthie went home so early, as many people have suggested she could possibly have been an outsider with the other vets and therefor been paired with a weaker male and could have been thrown in early on. Sooo.....just a thought and sorry if I didn't make sense, it all makes sense in my head but sometimes I don't explain things very well.[/quote] Check my post #599 on this. I thought the exact same thing and wished for such a concept (except that the teams were formed from pulling straws of something like that). For example Rachel and Issac drwe the same straws and were a team, and Mark and lets say Brooke were a team ..... The fun would be Mark throwing a mission to set up a Mark vs Issac duel and a Rachel vs Brooke duel .... and Mark and Rachel won ... they'd be a new team ..... It would be most interesting to see the social play there because people would be throwing missions left and right to get better partners ...... and as I mentioned in my previous post (the teamed not saved would get to pick it's opponents for seperate duels - however, one day the M would pick the opposing team for seperate duels, and the next the F would pick). I think that duels are still alternated ... girl day, guy day ..... but the team doesn't have to go in together or in seperate duels. For example ..... Landon/Brittani may have won challenges on a day of a female duel ... which could have spared Brit .... and lost on a male day, which explains Landon vs Issac. Who knows ? I think that in the last week, perhaps to decrease the head count, teams may have to either go in together or as individuals and then we may see the mixing of teams or whatnot. I am no rocket science, but I know that Duel means (1 on 1 faceoff - whether it be 1 team vs 1 team or 1 person vs 1 person). with that said, I'd be very surprised to see more than 2 teams in the Final Challenge. I sincerely hope this is the case because we could see some of the strongest head to head match ups since Duel I.

I hope the duels this time around are really intense. Cause I don't remember that many really good match ups in the first duel. There were a few like Derrick vs Wes. But even the match ups with strong people like CT vs Evan, it was a boring duel.

Darock, I apologize if I stole some of your ideas, I didn't realize you had suggested the same thing (I read what you wrote it just didn't sink in until now). But regardless of whether or not we are both right or wrong I think a challenge under those premises would be fun to watch. Especially with your idea about throwing challenges to get with a better partner. I definitely agree with both you and V1 and everyone else who has said that I this will be one of the best challenges (strictly physical/strength wise not regarding any drama or hookups) in a while. I am excited to watch and I only wish we didn't have to wait so long!