The Challenge: Generic Thread

[QUOTE=gbp02;325123]People keep saying that Evelyn is better than Rachel and I think there's nothing to back that up. Evelyn is not far and beyond the best player, a great example of this was on Fresh Meat 2. Challenges 3, 4 & 5 were all determined by the best female player. All three challenges were totally physical too. And what happened, Laurel smoked her on all three of them. Rachel dominated the Duel 2, which had some of the most physical bouts ever. People keep saying Jodi, but remember the female field on Duel 1 was very weak and some of the games there were not very physical, like ice breakers. Another thing about Emily, she failed to swim faster than Jenn and Camila, neither of whom are known for great stamina. I would rank the females as Rachel, Evelyn, Laurel, Emily, Camila/Jodi[/QUOTE] Most of those challenges on FM2 were based around height, giving Laurel a clear-cut advantage over the rest of the girls. Rachel did not dominate the Duel 2, she won 4 missions and a lot of that season had partner missions anyway. Besides, Ev wasn't on that season so how fair is it to use that against her? Wasn't Rachel defeated by Kellyanne in a face-off, yet Kellyanne couldn't even get Ev to budge in their elimination on the Ruins?

[QUOTE=Fresh Meat;325146]Most of those challenges on FM2 were based around height, giving Laurel a clear-cut advantage over the rest of the girls. Rachel did not dominate the Duel 2, she won 4 missions and a lot of that season had partner missions anyway. Besides, Ev wasn't on that season so how fair is it to use that against her? Wasn't Rachel defeated by Kellyanne in a face-off, yet Kellyanne couldn't even get Ev to budge in their elimination on the Ruins?[/QUOTE] Comparing the endurance faceoff (not an elimination round) on the Island that Rachel lasted over 2 hours on and the "shadowfighter" elimination on the Ruins doesn't make any sense at all. KellyAnne wouldn't have been able to budge Laurel, Emily or Rachel either. That's just a horrible attempt to try to claim Evelyn is somehow better than Rachel. And Rachel did dominate The Duel II....there wasn't a single person that would have called her out for a duel. Also, I have no idea how Laurel's height is being used against her--that's just ridiculous. The only one that could be used as "an advantage" was the one with the hanging logs.

[QUOTE=Fresh Meat;325146]Most of those challenges on FM2 were based around height, giving Laurel a clear-cut advantage over the rest of the girls. Rachel did not dominate the Duel 2, she won 4 missions and a lot of that season had partner missions anyway. Besides, Ev wasn't on that season so how fair is it to use that against her? Wasn't Rachel defeated by Kellyanne in a face-off, yet Kellyanne couldn't even get Ev to budge in their elimination on the Ruins?[/QUOTE] Kelly Anne is a contortionist, so that's why she won the Island face-off. She even showed off her crazy skills on "The Ruin's dailies.

[QUOTE=kvm1977;325147]Comparing the endurance faceoff (not an elimination round) on the Island that Rachel lasted over 2 hours on and the "shadowfighter" elimination on the Ruins doesn't make any sense at all. KellyAnne wouldn't have been able to budge Laurel, Emily or Rachel either. That's just a horrible attempt to try to claim Evelyn is somehow better than Rachel. And Rachel did dominate The Duel II....there wasn't a single person that would have called her out for a duel. Also, I have no idea how Laurel's height is being used against her--that's just ridiculous. The only one that could be used as "an advantage" was the one with the hanging logs.[/QUOTE] Not being called into an elimination is in no way being dominant. Brittini won her fair share of challenges as well and even defeated Rachel in one of them. What difference does it make if it wasn't an elimination? She did defeat Rachel, therefore proving that Rachel is no way the best of the best. The "King of the Wall" challenge also benefited Laurel; you're telling me someone much taller wouldn't have an advantage climbing a wall? There is also the case of Evelyn having Luke as a partner.

It doesn't prove that Rachel isn't "the best of the best". That's absolutely ridiculous. Evelyn couldn't win with Danny against Casey & Wes and lost with Luke who made a final in his only other challenge--couldn't we use the same logic and say that proves she's not the best of the best when someone like Emily is 5-0 in elimination rounds even with Ty (previously 0-2) as her partner? Hmmm... Maybe Evelyn losing 3 times in eliminations (1 she threw) should be held against her since Rachel losing a non-elimination round apparently is somehow proof she isn't the best of the best. Your argument is getting weaker and weaker by the post here especially considering this started off as picking Evelyn, Rachel, Laurel or Emily is all logical. Clearly you have something against Rachel--no idea what but it is obvious when absurd comments like "therefore proving that Rachel is no way the best of the best". I guess we're down to about Susie, Laurel, Coral or Emily as the only options for top girl using your criteria. You definitely can't pick Evelyn.

I have something against Rachel now? Just to be clear, I don't. I do apologize for using poor wording and claiming that KA defeating her doesn't make Rachel the best of the best.

[QUOTE=kvm1977;325089]Also, I'm against judging players on "missions". I think how they perform in elimination rounds (mainly individually) and finals is the true test.[/QUOTE] I think mission based performances are far more revealing than elimination rounds. When somebody wins a mission then they are beating the entire of competitors...including the two that are to be involved in the elimination round later on in the evening. Had that mission been the elimination round of the night all the competitors would've lost to the winner. Aneesa only beat Paula while Jodi beat Paula, Kina, Diem, Svetlana, Beth AND Aneesa. It's the difference between beating a single person and every single person there. [QUOTE=Fresh Meat;325100]As long as it's nothing physical, I think they all have a shot against them. Camila even came close to beating Laurel on Cutthroat.[/QUOTE] I agree. As long as size and weight aren't issues which is what most elimination rounds are centered around. That is another reason that I prefer daily missions over eliminatino rounds because of the wider variety of skills displayed. Eric would do great in elimination rounds simply based on his weight but that doesn't mean much to me. I would never expect somebody the size of Evelyn to beat Laurel in a pushing type duel. The weight difference is just too much no matter how tough the smaller person is. We already saw this on Cutthroat when Derrick went against Tyler. [QUOTE=Kripsters1;325110]Didn't Abe also said on Cutthroat that Cara Mara was better then Laurel, when they wanted to send Laurel in?[/QUOTE] He stated later on that Laurel was better than Cara Maria on his formspring. [QUOTE=gbp02;325123]People keep saying that Evelyn is better than Rachel and I think there's nothing to back that up. Evelyn is not far and beyond the best player, a great example of this was on Fresh Meat 2. Challenges 3, 4 & 5 were all determined by the best female player. All three challenges were totally physical too. And what happened, Laurel smoked her on all three of them. Rachel dominated the Duel 2, which had some of the most physical bouts ever.[/quote] Evelyn was not conditioned for Fresh Meat 2 and she was put first almost every single time which dramatically lowered her chances of winning. She later on showed to be a better climber than Laurel on Rivals when she won the helicopter challenge. [QUOTE=gbp02;325123]People keep saying Jodi, but remember the female field on Duel 1 was very weak and some of the games there were not very physical, like ice breakers.[/quote] She did extremely well on the missions outside of the Duel when she was on point. Her markings were on par with most of the men's in the athletic challenges on Gauntlet 2 and Inferno 2 the same way Evelyn's markings were on par with most of the men's on Inferno 3. Even if I blocked out Jodi's win from the Duel I would still consider her one of the toughest based on what she did on Gauntlet 2 and Inferno 2. I personally think it goes Evelyn the rest in no real order(Rachel, Laurel, KA, Camila, Jodi, etc.)

[QUOTE=kvm1977;325151]It doesn't prove that Rachel isn't "the best of the best". That's absolutely ridiculous. Evelyn couldn't win with Danny against Casey & Wes and lost with Luke who made a final in his only other challenge--couldn't we use the same logic and say that proves she's not the best of the best when someone like Emily is 5-0 in elimination rounds even with Ty (previously 0-2) as her partner? Hmmm... Maybe Evelyn losing 3 times in eliminations (1 she threw) should be held against her since Rachel losing a non-elimination round apparently is somehow proof she isn't the best of the best. Your argument is getting weaker and weaker by the post here especially considering this started off as picking Evelyn, Rachel, Laurel or Emily is all logical. Clearly you have something against Rachel--no idea what but it is obvious when absurd comments like "therefore proving that Rachel is no way the best of the best". I guess we're down to about Susie, Laurel, Coral or Emily as the only options for top girl using your criteria. You definitely can't pick Evelyn.[/QUOTE] I agree that was a bad argument by FM, but that doesn't mean she has something against Rachel. I think it's crazy that people are picking Rachel over Evelyn, I thought her and Paula's domination in Rivals and beating a team like Laurel and Cara Maria would have cemented her reputation as GOAT. If we're talking about who is the best all time girl [B]Player[B][/B][/B], my list would be 1. Ev 2. Emily 3. Laurel 4. Rachel, but if we're talking about competitors I'd probably have to say 1. Ev 2. Emily (just b/c she's only been on 2 challenges), 3. Rachel, 4. Laurel But here's the thing guys-we've only seen any combo of Ev, Rachel, Emily, and Laurel on 5 challenges together. [B]The Island[/B] (Ev and Rachel)-Ev won and was the best player in the game guy or girl, Rachel went home on episode 5 after losing to Kelly Anne and getting voted off by the mob. But the Island was such a different challenge that you can't really say that proved anything about if Ev is better than Rachel. [B]FM2[/B] [B](Ev and Laurel)[/B]- Kenny and Laurel won 5 daily challenges and an elimination against Sarah/Vinny (decent team) while getting upset by Landon and Carley in the finals, while Ev and Luke won 1 daily challenge and 2 eliminations against Paula/Jeff (good team) and Wes/Mandi (average team) before losing to Landon/Carley (good team). Laurel was by far the best girl on FM2, but Ev didn't have a great partner and had to go first almost every time because Kenny controlled the order. [B]Cutthroat[/B] [B](Laurel and Emily)[/B]-Laurel got 2nd on the finals and beat Camilla in an elimination round, Emily beat Melinda and Paula in eliminations and got 3rd in the finals. [B]Rivals[/B] [B](Ev and Laurel)[/B]-Ev/Paula won 4 daily challenges, an elimination round against Robin/Aneesa (above average team), and the final. Laurel/Cara Maria won 1 daily challenge and made the finals, DQed twice, beat Camilla/Theresa (the 3rd best girls team on that season in my opinion), and Jasmine/Jonna (average team) in the most unfair elimination of all time. [B]Exes[/B] [B](Rachel and Emily)[/B]-Rachel/Aneesa won 1 elimination against Tyrie/Jasmine (bad team, although it's impressive that 2 girls beat a guy, even though it was Tyrie), lost to Dunbar/Paula (good team, especially in that elimination). Emily/Ty won 3 eliminations against Leroy/Naomi, (below average team, although beating Leroy in any elimination is impressive), Abe/Cara Maria (good team), and Paula/Dunbar (good team), and they got 3rd in the finals. Those are the facts. So basically, the only thing you can say is Laurel was better than Ev on FM2 and Ev was better than Laurel on Rivals. You can't really say either Laurel or Emily was better on Cutthroat, and the results of The Island and Exes show nothing about Rachel as a competitor (although they both proved she is not a good strategist). One thing that we can say for sure is that until we see them all on a Duel, we will never know who is the best.

[QUOTE=ChallengeGod;325177]I agree that was a bad argument by FM, but that doesn't mean she has something against Rachel. I think it's crazy that people are picking Rachel over Evelyn, I thought her and Paula's domination in Rivals and beating a team like Laurel and Cara Maria would have cemented her reputation as GOAT. If we're talking about who is the best all time girl [B]Player[/B], my list would be 1. Ev 2. Emily 3. Laurel 4. Rachel, but if we're talking about competitors I'd probably have to say 1. Ev 2. Emily (just b/c she's only been on 2 challenges), 3. Rachel, 4. Laurel But here's the thing guys-we've only seen any combo of Ev, Rachel, Emily, and Laurel on 5 challenges together. [B]The Island[/B] (Ev and Rachel)-Ev won and was the best player in the game guy or girl, Rachel went home on episode 5 after losing to Kelly Anne and getting voted off by the mob. But the Island was such a different challenge that you can't really say that proved anything about if Ev is better than Rachel. [B]FM2[/B] [B](Ev and Laurel)[/B]- Kenny and Laurel won 5 daily challenges and an elimination against Sarah/Vinny (decent team) while getting upset by Landon and Carley in the finals, while Ev and Luke won 1 daily challenge and 2 eliminations against Paula/Jeff (good team) and Wes/Mandi (average team) before losing to Landon/Carley (good team). Laurel was by far the best girl on FM2, but Ev didn't have a great partner and had to go first almost every time because Kenny controlled the order. [B]Cutthroat[/B] [B](Laurel and Emily)[/B]-Laurel got 2nd on the finals and beat Camilla in an elimination round, Emily beat Melinda and Paula in eliminations and got 3rd in the finals. [B]Rivals[/B] [B](Ev and Laurel)[/B]-Ev/Paula won 4 daily challenges, an elimination round against Robin/Aneesa (above average team), and the final. Laurel/Cara Maria won 1 daily challenge and made the finals, DQed twice, beat Camilla/Theresa (the 3rd best girls team on that season in my opinion), and Jasmine/Jonna (average team) in the most unfair elimination of all time. [B]Exes[/B] [B](Rachel and Emily)[/B]-Rachel/Aneesa won 1 elimination against Tyrie/Jasmine (bad team, although it's impressive that 2 girls beat a guy, even though it was Tyrie), lost to Dunbar/Paula (good team, especially in that elimination). Emily/Ty won 3 eliminations against Leroy/Naomi, (below average team, although beating Leroy in any elimination is impressive), Abe/Cara Maria (good team), and Paula/Dunbar (good team), and they got 3rd in the finals. Those are the facts. So basically, the only thing you can say is Laurel was better than Ev on FM2 and Ev was better than Laurel on Rivals. You can't really say either Laurel or Emily was better on Cutthroat, and the results of The Island and Exes show nothing about Rachel as a competitor (although they both proved she is not a good strategist). [B]One thing that we can say for sure is that until we see them all on a Duel, we will never know who is the best[/B].[/QUOTE] And Even then we won't know because what if they all lose? None of them are invincible. I think Rachel is one of strongest women these shows have ever had.

[QUOTE=ChallengeGod;325177]You can't really say either Laurel or Emily was better on Cutthroat[/QUOTE] It seemed as if Laurel did better than Emily on every single mission outside of the bed jumping one. I think Emily is great but she hasn't dominated a challenge(missions included) the same way Ev(Inferno 3), Laurel(Fresh Meat 2), Rachel(Duel 2) and Camila(Exes) have. She has proven herself when going up against smaller girls in elimination rounds but those often favor her with the sheer size anyway. On Ruins Kenny, Johnny, Evan and Derrick have all said that KA was the most dependable female competitor there once Ev left.

[QUOTE=Debut Album;325179]And Even then we won't know because what if they all lose? None of them are invincible. [/QUOTE] I'm 95 percent sure one of those 4 would win if they were all on the same duel. [QUOTE=v123;325183]It seemed as if Laurel did better than Emily on every single mission outside of the bed jumping one. I think Emily is great but [B]she hasn't dominated a challenge(missions included)[/B] the same way Ev(Inferno 3), Laurel(Fresh Meat 2), Rachel(Duel 2) and Camila(Exes) have. She has proven herself when going up against smaller girls in elimination rounds but those often favor her with the sheer size anyway. On Ruins Kenny, Johnny, Evan and Derrick have all said that KA was the most dependable female competitor there once Ev left.[/QUOTE] But she hasn't really had much of an opportunity to. On a big team challenge it's hard to stand out as dominant (especially as a rookie), and on Exes she had at best the 6th best partner (Johnny, CT, Mark, Abe, Leroy) and make a strong argument that Dunbar and Wes would have been better partners. You're point about Kelly Anne doesn't say much, the best girl competitively besides her after Ev left were probably Sarah, Tonya, Kim, and Susie who aren't exactly murderers row, although I do think Kelly Anne is probably the 5th best girl competitor and would be my dark horse in a duel with all the top players.

[QUOTE=RMD1;325113]He was also banging her lol. I think his judgement may have been slightly clouded.[/QUOTE] You absolutely read my mind.

[QUOTE=Fresh Meat;325160]I have something against Rachel now? Just to be clear, I don't. I do apologize for using poor wording and claiming that KA defeating her doesn't make Rachel the best of the best.[/QUOTE] Fair enough--I apologize for misunderstanding your intent.

[QUOTE=kvm1977;325147]Comparing the endurance faceoff (not an elimination round) on the Island that Rachel lasted over 2 hours on and the "shadowfighter" elimination on the Ruins doesn't make any sense at all. KellyAnne wouldn't have been able to budge Laurel, Emily or Rachel either. That's just a horrible attempt to try to claim Evelyn is somehow better than Rachel. And Rachel did dominate The Duel II....[B]there wasn't a single person that would have called her out for a duel. [/B] Also, I have no idea how Laurel's height is being used against her--that's just ridiculous. The only one that could be used as "an advantage" was the one with the hanging logs.[/QUOTE] Tori?

[QUOTE=Kripsters1;325227]Tori?[/QUOTE] Tori wasn't going to take that risk--Tori would have gone after Brittini or maybe even Diem if she had been the last pick. Tori was definitely Rachel's biggest threat in a final which is why she used Aneesa to take Tori out.

What about Ellen, Christena & the Holly's as far as great girl competitiors go? Veronica was also a beast too. Yeah she didn't have the best season on the Ruins but she beat guys & girls for lifesavers on both the Inferno's & the Gauntlet.

Christena (South Pacific), Holly (Latin America) and even Mallory were great IMO but probably didn't do enough challenges--Christena & Mallory sadly only did one. Still disappoints me that they met in an elimination round. Ellen is a tough call--she was definitely a good competitor on Battle of the Sexes but I'm not sure how she would have done against some of the better females.

[QUOTE=kvm1977;325230]Christena (South Pacific), Holly (Latin America) and even [B]Mallory[/B] were [I][B]great IMO[/B][/I] but probably didn't do enough challenges--Christena & Mallory sadly only did one. Still disappoints me that they met in an elimination round. Ellen is a tough call--she was definitely a good competitor on Battle of the Sexes but I'm not sure how she would have done against some of the better females.[/QUOTE] RW:Paris-Mallory?!

Poll on MTV where you can vote for what you want the next challenge to be. [URL="http://remotecontrol.mtv.com/?p=140659"][url]http://remotecontrol.mtv.com/?p=140659[/url][/URL]

[QUOTE=LexBlair;325236]RW:Paris-Mallory?![/QUOTE] Yeah, I thought Mallory had great potential during her one challenge

[QUOTE=TheKorean;325240]Poll on MTV where you can vote for what you want the next challenge to be. [URL="http://remotecontrol.mtv.com/?p=140659"][URL="http://remotecontrol.mtv.com/?p=140659"][url]http://remotecontrol.mtv.com/?p=140659[/url][/URL][/URL][/QUOTE] I just voted. My vote went for a new Format. Why am I'm not suprised that the 2 most voted for formats are The Duel and The Ruins: Vets vs Rookies?. I guess people really want to see their favorite veterans duke if out for the umptenth time....Oh and maybe slap some of the rookies aroud while their at it...*sigh*

[QUOTE=Debut Album;325246]I just voted. My vote went for a new Format. Why am I'm not suprised that the 2 most voted for formats are The Duel and The Ruins: Vets vs Rookies?. I guess people really want to see their favorite veterans duke if out for the umptenth time....Oh and maybe slap some of the rookies aroud while their at it...*sigh*[/QUOTE] [B]SERIOUSLY[/B], do NOT start this again for the "umptenth time", please.

[QUOTE=LexBlair;325247][B]SERIOUSLY[/B], do NOT start this again for the "umptenth time", please.[/QUOTE] What are you talking about? I'm NOT starting anything nor am I looking too.

I voted for Ruins 2. I want my vets back.

I voted for the Ruins. I loved the concept & I think it'd be good if they had a Rookies/Vets season. I also wouldn't mind a Cut Throat 2. Duel 3 wouldn't be bad but I hate how the 2nd one was basically a partners challenge.

[QUOTE=TheKorean;325240]Poll on MTV where you can vote for what you want the next challenge to be. [URL="http://remotecontrol.mtv.com/?p=140659"][URL="http://remotecontrol.mtv.com/?p=140659"][url]http://remotecontrol.mtv.com/?p=140659[/url][/URL][/URL][/QUOTE] In my eyes the format is almost always good, it's the cast alot of the time.

[QUOTE=Debut Album;325246]I just voted. My vote went for a new Format. Why am I'm not suprised that the 2 most voted for formats are The Duel and The Ruins: Vets vs Rookies?. I guess people really want to see their favorite veterans duke if out for the umptenth time....Oh and maybe slap some of the rookies aroud while their at it...*sigh*[/QUOTE] I voted Duel 3 because I actually want to see the Vets get smacked around. Leroy was just recently brought into these Challenges, and to be honest, I think he could potentially be the best physical competitor in the past few seasons. Dustin is another sleeper hit. He strikes me as a second Wes competition wise. Frank (B2SD) has been pretty impressive too. I want to see Leroy, Dustin, Ty, Frank, Emily, Zach all go at it with the big dogs. It would be really interesting

To me it looks like Dustin hits Frank the same way he hit Mike on his RW season. He wasn't sent home for that. Either way I wouldn't be surprised if it isn't as epic as I want it to be. MTV usually lets me down.

I voted for a Ruins 2, just because the Challengers would have a stacked team with CT, Laurel, Emily, Leroy, Kellyanne, etc. I wouldn't mind a Duel 3 at all though with Evelyn, Rachel, Aneesa, Laurel, Emily, and others.

One should not assume that there is a standard to which BMP holds its cast. If there were a standard, then Jenn Grijalva certainly should have been sent home on at least one occasion during "Cutthroat." Perhaps the "standard" is whatever BMP thinks is best for their show.