The Challenge: Generic Thread

What do you guys think is more impressive and should be worth more weight in a "best challenger" discussion: mission wins, or elimination wins? For example: what's more impressive - Johnny and Camila winning the challenge that day, or Wes and Mandi winning the elimination that night? I'm not looking to hear that a particular elimination is more impressive than a particular challenge (i.e. scraping honey versus jumping and ducking), just if you guys consider one to be better than another.

I would say winning an elimination round is more impressive. That's when the pressure is on. But then again, you can argue the people who manage to win the day's challenge don't ever have to worry about going into the elimination round. But, yeah, without thinking too much about it - I will say it's more impressive to win an elimination round.

[QUOTE=Buck05;297375]I would say winning an elimination round is more impressive. That's when the pressure is on. But then again, you can argue the people who manage to win the day's challenge don't ever have to worry about going into the elimination round. But, yeah, without thinking too much about it - I will say it's more impressive to win an elimination round.[/QUOTE] So if you were doing it on a point scale, how much would you give for winning an elimination round versus winning that day's challenge?

Hhmm, I would have to say that winning the day's mission is more impressive, but only because you get to pick the order the next day. On challenges like the Duel 1, winning eliminations came with prizes, and I'm almost positive that in the case of some seasons, the winner(s) could pick the order of the next challenge. If that were the case, I would say Elims > Missions. The way it is now, only encourages ppl to repeatedly put Wes, or whatever black sheep player in repeatedly without any real consequence, cuz hey, if they survive elimination, I'll just put them first tomorrow trollololololol

I don't just look specifically at numbers necessarily. Winning missions and winning elimination rounds depends on who you're against and what the actual competition is. Sheer numbers do mean something though at a point, which is why Wes with his 11 elimination round wins does do him some good favors even if they weren't against the best people, compared to say Alton who is 5-0 but went up against guys like Danny, Latterian, and Jeremy. I also look at what the final is and the given circumstances for that final. Landon winning Fresh Meat II with Carley is what solidifies him with me as the best guy since he had a not that great partner but pushed her through the final at times and won. But winning The Island, The Ruins, Gauntlet 3, or Gauntlet 2 proves nothing to me given that the finals were all terrible with the teams and the games themselves. But losing in a final doesn't necessarily mean you lose that credibility. I consider coming in second on a Duel to be a better indicator than winning the majority of the finals. That's why I look at Brad as one of the best guys since he came in second on what I consider to be the two hardest challenges to win (and he should have won at least one of them, maybe both but that's a different argument for a different day). In short, it depends on circumstances. I don't just give people credit for a couple of elimination rounds if they were against ****ty people (*coughcoughBrandoncoughcough*) and I also don't just count winning a mission since there's who goes last and what the teams are at the time. If you actually have to work hard to win something OR dominate beyond the simple point of winning, then that's what impresses me.

[QUOTE=molds13;297378]So if you were doing it on a point scale, how much would you give for winning an elimination round versus winning that day's challenge?[/QUOTE] It really depends on the format. Winning a mission in a partner or individual challenge is more impressive to me because you beat more people. If it is a team format then an elimination round win is more valuable because it is you versus another player with no other people involved.

[QUOTE=TheFeedMachi;297382]It really depends on the format. Winning a mission in a partner or individual challenge is more impressive to me because you beat more people. If it is a team format then an elimination round win is more valuable because it is you versus another player with no other people involved.[/QUOTE] OK, so say this season then.

[QUOTE=molds13;297374]What do you guys think is more impressive and should be worth more weight in a "best challenger" discussion: mission wins, or elimination wins? For example: what's more impressive - Johnny and Camila winning the challenge that day, or Wes and Mandi winning the elimination that night? I'm not looking to hear that a particular elimination is more impressive than a particular challenge (i.e. scraping honey versus jumping and ducking), just if you guys consider one to be better than another.[/QUOTE] In this season, I think it really just depends what challenge or elimination someone is competing in. So far with this season I've been more impressed with the eliminations compared to the challenges. So I'm going to give it to the elimination wins here.

[QUOTE=molds13;297383]OK, so say this season then.[/QUOTE] Then Eliminations. Definitely. X Knocks the Spot > Give me some honey X Battle >>>> Hook Up (although this seems to be the hardest mission so far.) Banded Together > Mental Connection X Knocks the Spot > Adele. ;) Edit: I know those [strike]arent[/strike] are now in the right order.

[QUOTE=molds13;297383]OK, so say this season then.[/QUOTE] Same with this season. Even if you think the game is dumb, the winning team beat every other team in it rather than just 1 other team. Johnny and Camila have virtually won 3 of the 4 missions on this season making them the best team thus far.I think Landon was the best competitor on the Duel 2 even though he didn't win and Kenny and Laurel were the best team on Fresh Meat 2 even though they didn't win.

How has Johnny gone from Nobody - Nobody up Kenny's *** - Getting humiliated by CT - The frontrunner to beat in a challenge that has CT/Abram/Mark?

[QUOTE=LaneV95;298013]How has Johnny gone from Nobody - Nobody up Kenny's *** - Getting humiliated by CT - The frontrunner to beat in a challenge that has CT/Abram/Mark?[/QUOTE] Thinking the same thing. Goes from: Going home first on the Duel- Considered the easiest for Evan to beat in an elimination round over Dann J- Almost sent home 2nd on the island- the 3rd member of JEK- Getting destroyed by CT- Praised by everyone on BOTE when there are high caliber players who have beaten him in the past

When it comes to Battle of the Exes, you also have to take his partner into account. It's not like Johnny is doing everything. I think I can safely say that Camila has outperformed both Diem and Cara Maria (obviously) and that's working to Johnny's advantage and against CT and Abram. Johnny is a great competitor, don't get me wrong, but I still think he loses a one on one against CT. Abram? He's a different story. He doesn't seem to be the competitor he once was (i.e. Cutthroat final mission, losing to Ty). EDIT: And also - it's just common sense that someone would get better and better the more challenges you try. The first Duel - he was a lot smaller than he is now and was the new guy (aka easy target). Plus he lost in a bogus Duel to Tyler (one where all he did was stand there and guess how many watermelons someone could carry). In Gauntlet III, he lost to Evan while Evan was arguably one of the best players in the game. Can't really blame the guy for that. Johnny has just improved in all areas of the game. He's the king socially at these things while he's able to back it all up physically now. He's a great player all around. I hate saying that because I'm not the biggest fan, but you still have to admit it.

His loss to Evan on Gauntlet 3 was in a puzzle too, so it's not like he was athletically or physically outmatched at something. Before The Ruins, I would've said Johnny was the weak link of the three stooges but with what he's done as of late, I'd say he's by far the best competitor of the three and I think you can honestly make a case that he is the best current all-around challenge competitor. Might sound nuts, but I think getting smoked by CT on Cutthroat was the best possible thing that could've happened to Johnny. It's like that whole situation brought him back down to earth and he's going through these challenges with a totally different approach and covering all of his bases thoroughly in every aspect.

[QUOTE=townie;298263]His loss to Evan on Gauntlet 3 was in a puzzle too, so it's not like he was athletically or physically outmatched at something. Before The Ruins, I would've said Johnny was the weak link of the three stooges but with what he's done as of late,[B] I'd say he's by far the best competitor of the three[/B] and I think you can honestly make a case that he is the best current all-around challenge competitor. Might sound nuts, but I think getting smoked by CT on Cutthroat was the best possible thing that could've happened to Johnny. It's like that whole situation brought him back down to earth and he's going through these challenges with a totally different approach and covering all of his bases thoroughly in every aspect.[/QUOTE] Really? I'd say Kenny could take him in a physical elimination and so could Evan, and Evan could probably beat him in individual daily challenges (if he can still perform like on D1 and D2) Kenny isnt really good at the daily challenges but I think he would do better than Johnny in a final. Johnny isnt very strong and isnt that big, the only physical elimination was against Dunbar and I'm not going to say Dunbar is some super athlete. He has been surprisingly good at partner daily challenges, but he has had some of the best partners.

[QUOTE=Blue123;298269]Really? I'd say Kenny could take him in a physical elimination and so could Evan, and Evan could probably beat him in individual daily challenges (if he can still perform like on D1 and D2) Kenny isnt really good at the daily challenges but I think he would do better than Johnny in a final. Johnny isnt very strong and isnt that big, the only physical elimination was against Dunbar and I'm not going to say Dunbar is some super athlete. He has been surprisingly good at partner daily challenges, but he has had some of the best partners.[/QUOTE] I think it comes down to skill sets. I think Johnny is far and away the best at the daily challenges of the three. In terms of political game I always thought it went Kenny>Evan>Johnny but now it's hard to tell, especially since Johnny seems to have convinced CT to roll with him which I never would've predicted. I definitely agree that Kenny takes a final between the three by a long shot, they've all said it and a number of the cast members have agreed that Kenny is one of the best at finals. Johnny's strength is underrated. He trains like an animal and, like Abram, he's just good at stuff. I also think a lot of these guys come in and try to bull their way through stuff but Johnny is clearly a thinker (at least at the games). If you look at Episode 3 you can see him explaining to Leroy and Naomi what to do before their Dome starts and even in the backpacking rather than try to pull CT down with his strength he tries to trip him and hit him in the balls which actually was the smarter move. If you gave me the choice between the three it would come down to Kenny and Johnny and I have no idea who I'd take. Do you want someone who will smoke a final, play an awesome political game, but has a pretty narrow skill set when it comes to the daily challenges and eliminations (wrestling or endurance) or someone who can hang in a final, play a great political game and will perform well in any kind of daily challenge and most eliminations?

I still think Evan's by far the best competitor of the three. He dominated the daily challenges on Fresh Meat 1 and the Duel and won the Duel 2. When they were all together on the Ruins, Evan was clearly the leader and was looked at as the strongest competitor. As far as who has the best political game of the three, it's Kenny and it's not even close. Johnny is doing a better job at it this season, but he's always had a pretty weak political game. The guy almost got voted off on the Island when his opponent volunteered to leave, and on the Ruins he was the one getting blamed for all of the teams decisions. Evan's politcial game is also overrated to me. If he was such a great politician, he wouldn't have been called out three times on the Duel 2 because people didn't like him. The reason he made it to the end was because he was a good competitor, not because of his political game. As far as the day to day challenges go, I'd say it would go like: Evan>Johnny> Kenny. Politically it would be; Kenny>>>Evan>Johnny.

I 100% agree with the two post above Johnny has seriously improved since his first challenge. On the Duel 1 He was a NOBODY who got the axe on the first episode. Now look at him. I believe that CT destroying him was not an embarrassment since he could have done it to Kenny, Derrick, Brad, Alton and even Mark with as much ease.After the ruins, Rivals, Cutthroat and even the Inferno 3 where his leadership skills along with Alton's carried that weak team to the finals. I can safely say that he's in the top 10 best challenge competitors ever.

[QUOTE=Econ1260MetZ;298277]I 100% agree with the two post above Johnny has seriously improved since his first challenge. On the Duel 1 He was a NOBODY who got the axe on the first episode. Now look at him. I believe that CT destroying him was not an embarrassment since he could have done it to [B]Kenny, Derrick, Brad, Alton and even Mark with as much ease.[/B]After the ruins, Rivals, Cutthroat and even the Inferno 3 where his leadership skills along with Alton's carried that weak team to the finals. I can safely say that he's in the top 10 best challenge competitors ever.[/QUOTE]No way. He could have done it to Derrick with as much ease, and maybe Brad. But not the others. Kenny matches up with him size wise and Mark is even bigger than him, and Alton was a freak of nature. I think Mark probably would have been able to beat him in that elimination, especially if he was younger.

[QUOTE=JEK & Wes;298278]No way. He could have done it to Derrick with as much ease, and maybe Brad. But not the others. Kenny matches up with him size wise and Mark is even bigger than him, and Alton was a freak of nature. I think Mark probably would have been able to beat him in that elimination, especially if he was younger.[/QUOTE] CT couldve easily done it to Kenny are you kidding me? Johhny is bigger than Kenny in mass, though Kenny is taller. Plus Kenny is pretty uncoordinated.

[QUOTE=jhl182;298291]CT couldve easily done it to Kenny are you kidding me? Johhny is bigger than Kenny in mass, though Kenny is taller. Plus Kenny is pretty uncoordinated.[/QUOTE] Johnny is also top heavy. Kenny's said himself that his strength is in his legs and I doubt CT would've been able to get them off the ground like that and that elimination had nothing to do with coordination...Johnny allowed CT to lift him like that by leaning into his first move rather than resisting and once Johnny's heavier area (his upper body) was on CT's back, the rest of him followed. I really don't think he could've done it to Kenny.

I think CT [I]could have[/I] and [I]would have[/I] done that to Kenny.

Guys, Johnny is very strong. I think he is behind CT and Tyler as far as strength goes. I don't think the guys mentioned have achieved significant leg development to where they can squat 300+ pounds ATG( *** to grass: as low as possible) raw ( no belts, wraps, suits) for reps . CT Tyler Evan Johnny and maybe Kenny( doubt Kenny can) can accomplish that feat and they would ALL lose to CT in back up off me because while they are strong, He can squat 500+ raw( according to Townie and which souds reasonable). I don't know if any of you works out but that is Olympic weight lifting strength. Doesn't matter if Mark is 6'4 he has NO legs and would have got dragged along with Kenny. In spite of that annihilation, Johnny has proven to be an elite player (politically, mentally and physically) and I reiterate that if he wins anymore challenges, he seriously should merit consideration for the top 10 all-time list.

Quick question: What's the point in speculating over hypothetical match-ups that haven't occurred and probably never will? I truly doubt that CT will ever go up against Kenny (or Brad, or Derrick, or Mark, or Alton) in that exact elimination. If we're going to compare competitors, I think we should base it on their ACTUAL track record based on events that ACTUALLY occurred, not our personal opinions on the strengths and weaknesses of a certain competitor and what bearing we think that would have on an event that may or may not happen.

[QUOTE=Econ1260MetZ;298308]Guys, Johnny is very strong. I think he is behind CT and Tyler as far as strength goes. I don't think the guys mentioned have achieved significant leg development to where they can squat 300+ pounds ATG( *** to grass: as low as possible) raw ( no belts, wraps, suits) for reps . CT Tyler Evan Johnny and maybe Kenny( doubt Kenny can) can accomplish that feat and they would ALL lose to CT in back up off me because while they are strong, He can squat 500+ raw( according to Townie and which souds reasonable). I don't know if any of you works out but that is Olympic weight lifting strength. Doesn't matter if Mark is 6'4 he has NO legs and would have got dragged along with Kenny. In spite of that annihilation, Johnny has proven to be an elite player (politically, mentally and physically) and I reiterate that if he wins anymore challenges, he seriously should merit consideration for the top 10 all-time list.[/QUOTE]How do you know Mark has no legs? Either way he outweighs CT overall and would give him a hell of a fight, and might win. You really believe Tyler is stronger than Mark? Come on now. jhl182 & Buck05: Kenny outweighs Johnny and has a lot more endurance. He has wrestling experience too so he's probably pretty strong. No way he's getting carried by CT in 19 seconds.

You really think Alton would've faired better in Back Up Off Me than Johnny did? The guy is a 170 pound toothpick, CT would've cut the time he beat Bananas in by half against that guy.

[QUOTE=townie;298322]You really think Alton would've faired better in Back Up Off Me than Johnny did? The guy is a 170 pound toothpick, CT would've cut the time he beat Bananas in by half against that guy.[/QUOTE]He's around the same weight as Johnny and is physically stronger. He definitely wouldn't get beat as badly as Johnny.

Physically stronger?! The only challenge where he did really well was Fresh Meat 2 and Laurel had a lot to do with it. The Fresh Meat challenges have more to do with the girls abilities than the guys, even ask the castmembers. They even said it during an episode of Fresh Meat 1. I'm not even a fan of Johnny but his muscle mass and arms are bigger than Kenny. Kenny just has always played a great social game. The only time he's proven himself as an individual competitor was in 1 mission on the Inferno 3 ONLY because he was voted into the Inferno and needed to save himself. The good guys team chose him because he was the weakest ****** player and it would be an easy win. The ****** team also said on the show that he was the weakest on the team.

[QUOTE=jhl182;298344]Physically stronger?! The only challenge where he did really well was Fresh Meat 2 and Laurel had a lot to do with it. The Fresh Meat challenges have more to do with the girls abilities than the guys, even ask the castmembers. They even said it during an episode of Fresh Meat 1. I'm not even a fan of Johnny but his muscle mass and arms are bigger than Kenny. Kenny just has always played a great social game. [B]The only time he's proven himself as an individual competitor was in 1 mission on the Inferno 3 ONLY because he was voted into the Inferno and needed to save himself.[/B] The good guys team chose him because he was the weakest ****** player and it would be an easy win. The ****** team also said on the show that he was the weakest on the team.[/QUOTE] And didn't he have Evelyn as a partner for that mission? That helped. Johnny>Kenny - especially now that he's improved his social game.

[QUOTE=jhl182;298344]Physically stronger?! The only challenge where he did really well was Fresh Meat 2 and Laurel had a lot to do with it. The Fresh Meat challenges have more to do with the girls abilities than the guys, even ask the castmembers. They even said it during an episode of Fresh Meat 1. [B]I'm not even a fan of Johnny but his muscle mass and arms are bigger than Kenny.[/B] Kenny just has always played a great social game. The only time he's proven himself as an individual competitor was in 1 mission on the Inferno 3 ONLY because he was voted into the Inferno and needed to save himself. The good guys team chose him because he was the weakest ****** player and it would be an easy win. The ****** team also said on the show that he was the weakest on the team.[/QUOTE]You say that as if it means anything whatsoever. Kenny is bigger than Johnny, and outweighs him by at least 10lbs. Not to mention he has a stronger lower body and has more endurance. Kenny would fair much better than Johnny in Backup Off Me against CT.