Survivor Samoa: Finale - This Game Ain't Over

[QUOTE=wwwwhat;146178] Russel was responsible for most of them leaving, but he was too arrogant to even bother trying to form relationships with them?[/QUOTE] On the contrary, he formed relationships with the majority of them and then shuttled them out the door. Shambo, Jaison, Brett - you can go down the list and see how he gained their trust and then slit their throats one by one. He had a deal with everyone! Finding three hidden immunity idols does not hurt his case either, being he found two of them without even a clue... Bringing his team alliance from the brink of certain elimination with one of those immunity idols, was the master stroke of the game and probably the most exciting moment of the season. Finally, winning the most important immunity challenge in the game (the final one) is a solid checkmark in his column. He showed up in the clutch (in effect, he won Natalie the money as she would have been gone had he lost.) All the while, he brought us entertaining commentary on the side that I am sure the other cast members where surprised to see when it aired. I think people get confused in that because they don't like Russell, he can't be a great Survivor contestant. It has nothing to do with liking the guy. Anyone who watched the season knows it was the Russell show with the rest of the cast relegated to being his pawns. Maybe the end was fitting in that he lost, but he was the best player on the field of battle and everyone knows it. Russell is a shoe in top 5 player ever... I don't think any realistic list would not have him in that class.

No doubt Russel was easily the greatest player this season. It was pretty obvious he would be voted player of the season since he was the only person the show focused on (and for a good reason). It was a season full of boring people with lame game play. It will be interesting to see how he is portrayed in Survivor 20 with a cast full of big game players. It has nothing to do with liking the guy. I wasn't a big fan of Parvati, but on Micronesia you couldn't help but be amazed with her game play. Unlike Russel, she didn't let herself get cocky (his HUGE downfall in my opinion). He found hidden immunity idols without clues, won competitions when he needed, and handpicked many of the people to leave. How can be so great in all of these aspects and not learn to shut his mouth. And I don't think he realizes his flaws and I expect to see the same game play next season from him (which he will have an advantage in as the other players have not had the chance to witness his gameplay...had they seen his season, I can say with confidence he would be one of the first to go)

[QUOTE]And I don't think he realizes his flaws and I expect to see the same game play next season from him[/QUOTE] I can agree with you there. A little humility at the end would have probably turned the jury...

Agreed. If he talked to the jury the way he talked in the reunion show, I have no doubt he would have sweeped the jury.

[QUOTE=Bacchus;146147]Guess they will need to add that to the logo, outwit respectfully, outplay respectfully. Outlast respectfully. Give me a break. Did Richard Hatch play a respectful game? No. Yet he was rewarded for his game play, just like Russell should have been... Arguing that Natalie is actually a good player is quite ridiculous, don't you think? Do you expect the majority of viewers to suddenly say, "Oh ya, she was using mind control while not doing anything and riding Russell's coattails" - haha. Russell is not only the greatest player[I] this[/I] season, he is easily one of the best players ever. This really even isn't up for debate. As for All-Stars, it is a different game with a different dynamic. It should be interesting, as you are correct in that Russell did not have fair competition this season and Natalie getting the Russ spite vote from the jury, proves it.[/QUOTE] Do you not understand it's a social game? People are going to vote on emotion if you watch Survivor and claim to be the greatest player ever I'd think you'd realize that and not be so mean spirited and cocky. No I don't think arguing was Natalie a good player is ridiculous because umm...it doesn't matter how or why but she won. I will give Russell props that he is one of the best strategizers of all time but played one of the worst social games of all time also, which counterfiets him being one of the best players of all time. For the fourth time Bacchus you've yet to let me know what Natalie could have done differently. The show did a fantastic job manipulating making you think Russell was a great player when clearly he was a failure.

[QUOTE=Bolt8;146211] For the fourth time Bacchus you've yet to let me know what Natalie could have done differently. The show did a fantastic job manipulating making you think Russell was a great player when clearly he was a failure.[/QUOTE] It is not Natalie's fault the jury was bitter. She got handed the prize for doing nothing, as a reward to spite Russell. It is that simple. It has nothing to do with what she did or did not do... She didn't play a social game. She did nothing. Absolutely nothing other than be a vote puppet for Russell. I'm done with this circular logic. The majority of people agree with me including major publications like Entertainment weekly. You are free to believe what you chose. However, as a serious Survivor fan I like to make a fair assessment rather than one based solely on emotion. No one with a straight face can say Natalie deserved the money based on game play. No one... And every true fan that is making a list, knows this is probably the worst jury decision of all time (competing with Romber.)

Saying Natalie did nothing was foolish, keeping her mouth shut in the beginning was the strongest move. She saw the outspoken women were being picked off and she had no chance getting Russell voted off. She had an alliance with Russell AND alliances work together. She was the one who got Erik voted off if you believe it or not, if not I'm not sure what show you were watching. She played a great social game I'm not sure what show you are watching, but because of her religious beliefs she had close relationships with Laura & Brett and Jaison talked about how proud of her he was. The only person that didn't like Natalie was Shambo. You clearly just like Russ don't understand that this is a social game and when you are mean spirited and belittle people and threaten them you won't get their vote and don't deserve it. It's one thing if you vote me off and another if you vote me off calling me stupid. You don't respond to any of that logic though you just keep saying Russ deserves it and that's what everyone is saying and unfairly basing Natalie. You have no reasoning for your debates.

Bolt, just so you know... [URL="http://vevmo.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=4941"][IMG]http://vevmo.com/imagehosting/14b2fe4d053e32.jpg[/IMG][/URL] Anyway, you've typed the same thing 6 different ways (i.e. not talking and doing nothing was [I]actually[/I] her strategy, lol) and while it is hilarious, I'm not going to go in circles with this again. You think Natalie is the greatest Survivor ever, the majority of people know Russ controlled the game from start to finish and deserved to win (which of course is why he got the $100,000.) Reasonable people can admit to that reality. Let's leave it at that...

Alright so obviously you haven't read or logically listened to my argugement if you think I think Natalie is the greatest Survivor ever cause not even close and you never once responded to my actual agruement. Anyway you can keep being bitter with Russell and I'll keep smiling cause my person won.

[QUOTE=Bolt8;146219]Anyway you can keep being bitter with Russell and I'll keep smiling cause my person won.[/QUOTE] I'm not bitter. Russell was not "my" person, he was the best player. But, clearly your argument is based around the fact that Natalie was "your person." I figured as much...

Not sure how you got that idea....I think whoever wins that season is the most deserving it just happens that my favorite this season was Natalie.

Man you guys sure have selective reading lol, sorry the person I wanted to win and the person I thought to win, won. The person you wanted to and thought deserved to didn't so therefore my arguement is done. On to Survivor All-Stars and the definition of perfection: Parvati.

Part of the game is to get things to go how you want them too but not make everyone hate you in the end. That's why the "great strategists" and so-called "best players ever" don't usually win and the "coattail riders" and "floaters" do win. You need to play the game very socially and make people like you and want to vote for you. That is why Russel lost and deserved to lose. So he was a manipulator, although I really don't even see him as that great of one as he [I]needed[/I] his alliances support, and if one had switched over to the other team then he'd have been gone a long time beforehand. But manipulation and finding hidden idols isn't the only part of this game. That's why the smartest strategy is befriending everyone, staying under the radar, and possibly riding coattails.

[QUOTE=Wilderwolf;146230]That's why the smartest strategy is befriending everyone, staying under the radar, and possibly riding coattails.[/QUOTE] Guys, give it up. Natalie did not have a strategy. She made no moves in the game. She was in the final 3 because Russell chose in the beginning to take her with him (i.e. one of his dumb blondes.) [B]Read again and note:[/B] The only reason she was in the final 3 was because Russell decided to take her with him. Her game was entirely chance, being Russell could have kept Jaison or maybe tossed her for Shambo. He took her because she was the worst player and "had no chance of winning." It was all Russ, not her. If Russ tells Mick and Jaison to vote out Natalie, they do. It is simple as that. She didn't do anything. I'm just amazed that after the fact people are saying with a straight face that Natalie actually had some sort of game plan when no one has mentioned her name since this show started, being she did nothing for 38 1/2 days.

You're obviously sticking to your opinion, and we're obviously sticking to ours. No matter what you say, I believe she deserved the win. If she didn't, then she wouldn't have won. And for the record, she was my second favorite this season and I was rooting for her to Win if Brett was ousted. Russel obviously wasn't some godly strategist or mastermind if he kept Natalie because she had zero chance of winning seeing as she won 7 to 2. It was obvious no one would vote for Russel and he should have known they'd vote for her since she was so social and nice.

[QUOTE=Bacchus;146234]Guys, give it up. Natalie did not have a strategy. She made no moves in the game. She was in the final 3 because Russell chose in the beginning to take her with him (i.e. one of his dumb blondes.) [B]Read again and note:[/B] The only reason she was in the final 3 was because Russell decided to take her with him. Her game was entirely chance, being Russell could have kept Jaison or maybe tossed her for Shambo. He took her because she was the worst player and "had no chance of winning." It was all Russ, not her. If Russ tells Mick and Jaison to vote out Natalie, they do. It is simple as that. She didn't do anything. I'm just amazed that after the fact people are saying with a straight face that Natalie actually had some sort of game plan when no one has mentioned her name since this show started, being she did nothing for 38 1/2 days.[/QUOTE] Natalie did have a strategy and clearly it worked. Her strategy was to fly under the radar and play a great social game. Without Natalie Eric would have never been voted out and FoaFoa would have been on the jury. Russel played a great game but it was far from flawless. Only an idiot would take Natalie to the end over Shambo or Jaison!

[QUOTE=Wilderwolf;146235]You're obviously sticking to your opinion, and we're obviously sticking to ours. No matter what you say, I believe she deserved the win. If she didn't, then she wouldn't have won.[/QUOTE] This is not [I]my[/I] opinion. I am going over the consensus from the majority of media sites that cover the show while you stick your fingers in your ears and hum, lol. Again,[URL="http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,20332130,00.html"] this is a great article[/URL] that I'd say echos the sentiments of the majority of real fans. Fans that can separate who they want to win and who should win (based on a variety of criteria.) Sure, if you are glad Natalie won, great. She seems like a nice girl. Good for her. Just don't come here and actually pretend she deserved to win or actually executed some sort of brilliant strategy to defeat Russell. I guess what I'm saying is, don't insult my intelligence.

[QUOTE=Bacchus;146116]It was just a case of the jury being bitter. I think this is probably the first time in recent memory when ONE person was literally[I] directly[/I] responsible for all 9 jury members being where they were...and in almost the exact order of his choosing... Russell ran the game from day one. Picked up 3 hidden immunity idols and won individual immunity in the clutch, when it counted the most. Natalie smiled a lot...and well, that pretty much sums up her 39 days on the island. Did Natalie outwit Russ? Natalie couldn't outwit a toddler. Did she outplay him? Well, being see didn't win anything I can't see how that would even be a factor. Her idea of game play was asking Russell who she should vote for... Did she outlast him? Nope, they were there to the end together because he brought her along as he knew she did nothing to deserve to win (along with Mick.) She fails all criteria for sole survivor, beyond being at the right place at the right time - with a jury that was angry they had been played like a cello by a master.[/QUOTE] If you have to rely on HIIs & ICs to win, then you don't deserve it. Technically speaking, Russell was voted out at 11th Place. And about your argument of Natalie not outlasting Russell, that also means that Russell didn't outlast Natalie. Russell was an obvious goat for his cocky attitude. That's the whole reason why Natalie hid behind him. He was abrasive, rude, cocky, and arrogant. The way he belittled and berated everyone, there's no way he could've won a jury vote. Natalie saw Russell as the goat and went with him. Russell could've gotten Natalie out any time he wanted and he didn't do it, that's his fault. Also, Natalie & Russell voted exactly the same throughout the whole game. How does that make her less or him more deserving?

[QUOTE]Also, Natalie & Russell voted exactly the same throughout the whole game. How does that make her less or him more deserving?[/QUOTE]Because one person *cough* Russell *cough* decided who to vote for and the other person *cough* Natalie *cough* was a vote puppet. Anyway, I think what you are trying to say above is that Russell is a bad person - thus he did not deserve to win, while not taking into account how he played the game (i.e. completely and utterly running it from day 1 until day 39.) I get it, you guys don't like Russell (which is really the only argument being made. Personal dislike above all else.) That is not a determinate factor as to if he should have gotten the money or how he will go down in the history of the game (e.g. top 5.) I hated Richard Hatch, but knew he deserved the win. I didn't like Parvati and her dishonest tactics, but that doesn't mean I didn't think she deserved to win. Did Bob deserve to win? Well, all Sugar had to do is send him home and she would have won and she knew it. Not all winners, "deserve" to win. Not all winners "earn" it. Some are just the lucky recipients of blind luck and happenstance. I think what people are missing is if you would have asked anyone here a week ago if Natalie deserved to win, 100% of people would have said no (because, what...she had 10 minutes of airtime during the entire season?) Now, after the fact people are manufacturing whatever they can come up with to try and make a valid case - because she did win, not because she in anyway deserved to. She was a non factor from day one and while history is written by the victors, it is obvious here that Russell will go down as the better player and more memorable survivor. To be fair, will anyone even remember Natalie this time next year beyond a few hardcore fans? I doubt it...

Stop being delusional. It's not a matter of not liking Russell, it's a matter of realizing what a horrible social game he played. I'm not using a dislike for Russell to justify his loss, so stop putting words into my mouth. Natalie deserved to win because she was able to play a good game behind the scenes, not belittle and berate the others, and become friendly with all of Galu. I think what you are missing is that Russell's game wasn't even that stellar. Vecepia & Danni were underdog winners and they didn't need the Idol to do it. If it weren't for the Idol (which by NO means is strategy) Russell would've been 11th Place. Russell's social game was the antithesis of that of a Sole Survivor. That's why he didn't win and that's why he doesn't deserve to win.

We can play this game all day. Natalie did not deserve to win anything. She was not even voted in the top 3 by fans. No one is buying it. Sorry... Actually, it is too bad we can't see all the numbers. I doubt she would have been in the top 10.

[QUOTE=Troynuncdici;146250] I think what you are missing is that Russell's game wasn't even that stellar. .[/QUOTE] Except the part where he picked off almost every player in the game, on cue. Found three hidden immunity idols, made a valid deal with almost everyone in the game before he handed them their walking papers and won the final immunity challenge, sending shoe in for the money Brett home. I think you need to stop being delusional...

The biggest aspect of Survivor is that it is a social game. Russel sucked at the social aspect and he didn't win, no surprise there. Natalie was the most social and she won, how is that a surprise?

Alright, I've read over all the arguments in this thread and I'm finally convinced. It took me a few times, but now it has all sunk in... Natalie, is the most deserving, genius, best Survivor cast member of not only Samoa, but of all time. Sadly, I'm not sure I'll even watch All Stars. Natalie isn't on it. Without the very best "flying under the radar" top secret social player of all time, what's the point? I mean, she was so top secret, they didn't even show the viewers! She totality owned everyone socially, and in secret. She is amazing and without her, there is no reason to continue. Bon Voyage Survivor. I'll miss you, but I've already seen it all - [B]I've seen the very best.[/B]