The Duel II Sociograms (Spoilers)

[B][SIZE="5"][CENTER]WARNING!!!!![/CENTER][/SIZE][/B] [B][SIZE="3"][B][COLOR="Red"]A word of caution: the sociogram contains known spoilers as of the date of creation. Don't read comments above this one if you don't want to know which cast members are no longer in the game...[/COLOR][/B][/SIZE][/B]

[quote=producer88;38897]I think you should make Rachels circle the biggest one. It was stated before on a spoiler threat that she is so far dominating the game.[/quote]Yea but this is still early on. In Battle of the Sexes 2, she was arguably the dominant force on the girls team (in a social/strategic sense) right up until her elimination. From V1man's spoilers I interpreted that he meant dominant in that social/strategic sense and not physically, so her standing can quickly change. I would like to see her do well though, so I hope I'm wrong.

[quote=Dartagnan;38913]I agree with seannnn. While I think Rachel could be the biggest threat socially and physically, she has a lot more of a chance to be picked than somebody like Katie. Katie has a lot of friends, plus, people might want her around for the fact that she would be easier to beat than Rachel. I want her in the finals, but she is not the biggest threat. When i hear dominant, I think physically, but social game trumps the physical game in The Duel.[/quote] Not really if there is no second place. The social game can only take you to the finals after that you need to be the biggest threat physically. Rachel has the best chance to win this game. Katie can win in a duel because when she gets pissed she wants it even more. The final mission in the last duel was a race. Katie did not do well in the exile, a race(not saying much because big ez was her teamate)

I'm always amazed that people see the cast in a time vacuum. If XXXX was not good at something once, he/she is destined in the minds of some to be that person forever. For people who go on the challenges for the social experience/vacation and the appearance fee, that may be the case. But those numbers are few. Just to pick Katie as an example, she is clearly smart enough to have carefully studied the last duel and trained for the range of duel options employed. Since this is very likely her last challenge, I'd expect she would have been motivated to train specifically for the things in which she did not do well in on past challenges and for those things from the Duel in which she needs the most work. BMP is rarely original, so we are likely to see the same things, with some variation on The Duel II. If I had only watched Rachel on The Island, I might infer that she is stronger than Robin, but I would know nothing else of her in any empirical way. If I had seen only G3 and The Island, I'd think that Tori is the strongest still in the hunt, but then we don't know the training and conditioning regimen of any of the women.

[quote=V1man;38927] Just to pick Katie as an example, she is clearly smart enough to have carefully studied the last duel and trained for the range of duel options employed. Since this is very likely her last challenge, I'd expect she would have been motivated to train specifically for the things in which she did not do well in on past challenges and for those things from the Duel in which she needs the most work. BMP is rarely original, so we are likely to see the same things, with some variation on The Duel II. [/quote] I Completly understand what you are saying. I loove Katie, she is my all time favorite challenge player but i do feel like she lacks certian things (based on every challenge she has ever competed in) and i feel like you need the things that she did not show in her past challenges to win the final challenge of the duel. And i am very sad to hear that this may be her last challenge :( good luck Katie!

[quote=V1man;38927]I'm always amazed that people see the cast in a time vacuum. If XXXX was not good at something once, he/she is destined in the minds of some to be that person forever. For people who go on the challenges for the social experience/vacation and the appearance fee, that may be the case. But those numbers are few. Just to pick Katie as an example, she is clearly smart enough to have carefully studied the last duel and trained for the range of duel options employed. Since this is very likely her last challenge, I'd expect she would have been motivated to train specifically for the things in which she did not do well in on past challenges and for those things from the Duel in which she needs the most work. BMP is rarely original, so we are likely to see the same things, with some variation on The Duel II. If I had only watched Rachel on The Island, I might infer that she is stronger than Robin, but I would know nothing else of her in any empirical way. If I had seen only G3 and The Island, I'd think that Tori is the strongest still in the hunt, but then we don't know the training and conditioning regimen of any of the women.[/quote] Well, in a way, it's kind of natural for people to look to past history to make guesses as to what may happen in the future. If you last saw a person and they were like this and that, and you have no new information on that person, then you might view the person as the same until they are proven otherwise. Of course that doesn't mean that things will be the same. People do change. We have seen people who were once considered weak become good competitors, and people who were once strong put in a weaker performance on a later challenge. But with something like these challenges (as well as with sports and other things), people like to see proof before they feel things have changed completely. If we hear nothing about so and so having changed, then we don't really have anything else to go by but the past. Either that, or wipe the slate clean every time someone goes off our screens, or if we actually interact with people in real life, until we meet again. I like Katie a lot, but she has a history of not being strong in missions. And we've seen her in plenty of challenges. But we do know that she is capable of performing decently, especially when someone makes her really angry. I certainly hope she will compete well, because I like her and I want her to do well and stick around. I do think she will last for a while, if not to the very end. Rachel is someone who I can understand why people think she's overrated. I think it's mainly because of BOTS1 when she wasn't near the top when they kicked her off, and a big stink was made of how shady it was. It was seen as unfair because she wasn't at the very bottom, or next to last, or even above that. However, I also feel that some people talk so much about how she doesn't do anything well in missions to the point that I feel she's underrated by a few as well. One of her big missions from the past was on BOTS2 in which she won her heat in the punching bag mission (meaning she beat the guys in that mission as well (though the tiebreaker was lost). She was a good performer in The Gauntlet and wasn't one of the people on the chopping block for elimination - and this was on a team in which RR Adam seemed to lead a charge of men into wanting to vote off the girls on the team. I wouldn't call her the best ever (I think Emily and Holly(wick) beat her for sure, and a couple of others as well), but I do think she's competent in missions.

To me Katie is honestly strong mentally and while some others may argue how much of a physical competitor she may be, I think she definitely has what it takes to make to to the end and win. It would be fitting that she go out on her last challenge, win or lose, competing in the last challenge.

Yeah, I think Katie could make it. I wouldn't rule her out for making it to the end. She is a veteran who knows how these things run, she's made it to the end before, she helped her team win for The Inferno, and she is friendly with a lot of these people on this challenge. She is also smart about these challenges, I'd say. She knows when people are trying to do shady stuff, and she has experience with using her alliances to the best of her ability. I also think she will have some decent missions.

[QUOTE=ejborys22;38928]I Completly understand what you are saying. I loove Katie, she is my all time favorite challenge player but i do feel like she lacks certian things (based on every challenge she has ever competed in) and i feel like you need the things that she did not show in her past challenges to win the final challenge of the duel. And i am very sad to hear that this may be her last challenge :( good luck Katie![/QUOTE] Of course she lacks some refined skills -- that was my point, along with a suggestion that she is not stupid and recognizes what she needed to work on before this challenge. I would have been wiser for me no to give any example since that is all people see to jump on while ignoring my real point which is that by and large, fans don't have the right perspective. It is something I've heard frequently over the years from cast members,

[quote=V1man;38934] I would have been wiser for me no to give any example since that is all people see to jump on while ignoring my real point which is that by and large, fans don't have the right perspective. It is something I've heard frequently over the years from cast members,[/quote] I guess I will say here that I actually feel from a fan's point of view that it seems sometimes the opinions and thought of fans are jumped on. Perhaps that is not what is intended, as I don't intend to attack people when I post as well, and maybe some think that I am attacking. But part of the reason I may post some things about being a fan is because I want to get across why I think the way I do about this and that. There is the fan perspective, which is us watching what we see on TV - in other words, seeing what the producers/editors give us. There is a perspective of crew people. There is a perspective of people who know or work with these reality people. And there is the perspective of the cast members themselves. And all three perspectives can be different. Different because of the information we receive and how we receive it. Different because we are all different people with different personalities and thought processes. There's just the fact that fans will vary and agree and disagree on things, and cast members will do the same with each other, and fans and cast members will disagree with each other. I know I disagree with who some of the recent cast think are the weak and strong people, that's for sure. And I just go by what I see in missions. As a fan of the show who doesn't know any of these people personally, I don't have much to go by but what I am shown. We also sometimes receive information from cast members giving their side of the story and from people who are on the inside, but still the bulk of what fans know comes from the shows. When I say that I mainly have what I am shown to go by, it is to show that my thoughts as well as the thoughts of other fans come from what we watch most of the time. It's just that I feel sometimes we as fans are looked at as people whose opinions don't matter as much, and I post what I do sometimes to help people understand what I am seeing as a fan. I think it's an important part of the equation as well (the fan perspective). The show is presented to be watched, and people watch and have opinions. Do they have the full story? Of course not. But the cast members will be largely known as what is presented to the fans on TV. It's something for the cast members themselves to think about (as you definitely have mentioned before) if they would like to attempt to change the perceptive of the fans. I'm sure if a cast member were just to watch one of these shows that they aren't a part of as just a fan, they will come up with their own ideas as to who the people on the show really are, then when they meet them, they have a different opinion on them. Of course, it's not necessarily easy to watch the shows as just a fan after you've been through the process. I've read something from Melissa from RW New Orleans about that subject.

As a person who has had personal experiences with cast memmbers... I think I get frustrated by the huge difference between the REAL personalities.. and the perceived personalities. Sometimes, I feel it's my job to stand up and say.. "THAT'S NOT TRUE!!"

[quote=Insider;38939]As a person who has had personal experiences with cast memmbers... I think I get frustrated by the huge difference between the REAL personalities.. and the perceived personalities. Sometimes, I feel it's my job to stand up and say.. "THAT'S NOT TRUE!!"[/quote] I'm sure I'd feel the same way if I knew someone from a reality TV show personally. Even without knowing someone I've watched on TV, sometimes I feel only one side of them is noticed by others and I might say something to kind of stick up for them. I wouldn't have it any other way. That's totally acceptable and understandable to me. All these different perspectives makes for interesting conversation and a more rounded view. Even when dealing with people thinking a person I know (that's not on TV) is only like this and that, if I know that person to be totally different or whatever, I will sometimes say something in defense of them. Like when someone meets a friend of yours when they are having a bad day. They might not come off as the most friendly, and that's how they will be perceived by others, but if I know they are typically not like that, I'd want to let the others know. I think that's totally normal, especially when you care about a person. I will say you made me feel a teeny smidge better about Kenny as a person, if it makes you feel better. I like that he's an artist. Back to the sociogram. Is Brad really friends with Evan? Or do you see it as a possibly strategic/alliance thing? I remember they were on The Duel together, and they were in that big alliance group, but with the other people on this challenge, do you think those two would work together?

I don't know Brad personally... I would say he's probably at a different place in his life right now.. I don't see him hanging out with Evan much. However, they are both big guys. With this challenge it's tough. You want to take out other big guys right away. However, they might not go home and you want them on your side. If Brad aligns himself with Evan.. it's def more gameplay than personal choice. Brad def seems like more of a stand up kinda guy than Evan.

So does Aneesa basically stand without an alliance?

[quote=Dartagnan;39425]To me yes, but I can't honestly say she doesn't have one this time because she may, but I don't think she does. She never really dos have an alliance. The closest she could get this time is Ruthie or Jenn, but we know what happened with Ruthie and Jenn is more caught up with Rachel. And once again, the bigger circles are the bigger threats.[/quote] I see. She always seems to be an outcast but still does well. Hopefully the smaller threats can work their way up and try to take out bigger threats like Jenn and Rachel.

I'm not warm to a Tori/Paula nexus. Also, based on a little leak of info tonight from the front lines, I'd say that Kimberly's circle size is about 50% of what it should be right now. Things could always change tomorrow. Your assessment of Aneesa was probably accurate last week. Now I have no idea. Everything seems very fluid.

[QUOTE=Dartagnan;39431]Really? I thought they were friends. Interesting. Well like I said, they are all a threat, but for me Kim still isn't as big a threat as Jenn, Rachel, or Aneesa. But that could change. What assessment? The one in which I said she is a social outcast or the one in which I said she has the mental game played out well?[/QUOTE] Re Aneesa, both yes Re my earlier comment: Trust me. It appears to me that the sociogram best suited for the Duel 2 format requires a mixed gender format, due to the voting rules.

[quote=V1man;39428]I'm not warm to a Tori/Paula nexus. Also, based on a little leak of info tonight from the front lines, I'd say that Kimberly's circle size is about 50% of what it should be right now. Things could always change tomorrow. Your assessment of Aneesa was probably accurate last week. Now I have no idea. Everything seems very fluid.[/quote] I'd say that Kimberly's circle size is about 50% of what it should be right now. Is this by choice, brainwashing of members of her circle, or simply by the outcome of the game (I understand that this is not a spoiler page, so I leave the last part open ended)? As for Aneesa, I really don't think she needs allies at this point ..... she probably accepts that she will be going in more frequently than others....... as does Kim and Brittani, and choose to focus her energies there. [B][I]The only way you can break a power alliance is to dismantle it piece by piece[/I][/B].

I am not surprised that Aneesa is doing well. Just like on the first Duel, Aneesa seems to always have a lot of male support. Im sure that Evan, Eric, Mark and probably others all have her back when it comes to Duel selection. Also, based upon size reasons, it would be expected that some of the smaller girls might be afraid to go against her.

[quote=Darock1713;39435][B][I]The only way you can break a power alliance is to dismantle it piece by piece[/I][/B].[/quote] Thats what I think also. That would be a very smart strategy.

She really does perform well in the Duels. It would be interesting to see how many she goes in this time. Hopefully "the curse" isn't on her this time.

[quote=DebbyFitch14;39436]I am not surprised that Aneesa is doing well. Just like on the first Duel, Aneesa seems to always have a lot of male support. Im sure that Evan, Eric, Mark and probably others all have her back when it comes to Duel selection. Also, based upon size reasons, it would be expected that some of the smaller girls might be afraid to go against her.[/quote] i disagree on the males having her back. On the first duel the only guy that i remember who did have her back was Wes. And I can think of atleast 1 girl that each of the males would favor over Aneesa. But I am not there so I dont know