I really liked the way Fresh Meat 2 was edited. They showed and explained all of the alliances and motives. I feel like on Exes and Cutthroat a lot was assumed about alliances and why moves were being made. Hopefully on the next challenge they explain and show everything
[QUOTE=kvm1977;316533]"Could beat"--I didn't say would beat. Susie didn't want to face KellyAnne but Susie COULD have beat her in that final elimination round. Especially that one. Susie wasn't "given" Kim--she asked for Kim because, as she said, she knew she'd have to win 2 Ruins anyway. It wasn't the time to make the argument to face Casey and she knew it--part of being a great strategist.
Luck? Being a better strategist is getting better matchups. Susie didn't have to face Sarah or KellyAnne--that's part of strategy--and she COULD have beat them. KellyAnne is not some elite competitor. She's not Evelyn, Laurel or Emily. Tonya? Susie can't beat Tonya? Come on. Tonya is hit or miss.
Notice how you're trying to turn this into "how good of a competitor she is than how great of a strategist that she is because you can't win the strategist argument. Susie is one of the best ever when it comes to strategy. Johnny's getting there now but still does some idiotic things--[B]see throwing in Rachel & Aneesa TWICE because of what happened on The Island instead of trying to eliminate teams you wouldn't want to face in the final.[/B][/QUOTE]
I disagree with that and here is why. At the point in the game where they did it the first time, Tyrie/Jasmine were already going in. The remaining teams were Dunbar/Paula, CT/Diem, Mark/Robin, Abram/Cara Maria, Rachel/Aneesa, and Ty/Emily. All of those teams with the exception of Rachel/Aneesa had a great chance to win a challenge later and put Johnny/Camila in as a result of throwing them in.
So Johnny threw Rachel/Aneesa in because he knew they wouldn't win a challenge and throw them back in. And he used a dumb story of "Rachel was gunning for me on The Island" to justify him throw her in. The second time he threw them in is the same as the first.
[QUOTE=El Scorcho;316563]I disagree with that and here is why. At the point in the game where they did it the first time, Tyrie/Jasmine were already going in. The remaining teams were Dunbar/Paula, CT/Diem, Mark/Robin, Abram/Cara Maria, Rachel/Aneesa, and Ty/Emily. All of those teams with the exception of Rachel/Aneesa had a great chance to win a challenge later and put Johnny/Camila in as a result of throwing them in.
So Johnny threw Rachel/Aneesa in because he knew they wouldn't win a challenge and throw them back in. And he used a dumb story of "Rachel was gunning for me on The Island" to justify him throw her in. The second time he threw them in is the same as the first.[/QUOTE]
I completely disagree but that's okay
[QUOTE=El Scorcho;316615]So tell me your point of view on it. Thats what this site is for.[/QUOTE]
I've explained my point-of-view multiple times
Dunbar & Paula nor Abram & Cara Maria were likely to win a challenge either (unless there was another trivia one--which Rachel & Aneesa have just as good of a shot as winning). Johnny was simply seeking revenge. It was idiotic for anyone to throw the only team of two girls into an elimination round--you either want them in a final or to still be there for YOU if you finish last.
Johnny isn't always strategic...unlike Susie, Kenny, etc--the true great strategist. Johnny's not on that level. Johnny's very lucky that Diem's an idiot and wanted to throw in Dunbar & Paula instead of them the round before against Ty & Emily. CT was right and Diem should have listened. Diem always makes weird decisions when given the chance--see Fresh Meat I.
Johnny's a good strategist--he is...but he's not on Susie's level. I don't even see a valid argument. Being perfectly honest.
[QUOTE=kvm1977;316616]I've explained my point-of-view multiple times
Dunbar & Paula nor Abram & Cara Maria were likely to win a challenge either (unless there was another trivia one--which Rachel & Aneesa have just as good of a shot as winning). Johnny was simply seeking revenge. It was idiotic for anyone to throw the only team of two girls into an elimination round--you either want them in a final or to still be there for YOU if you finish last.
Johnny isn't always strategic...unlike Susie, Kenny, etc--the true great strategist. Johnny's not on that level. Johnny's very lucky that Diem's an idiot and wanted to throw in Dunbar & Paula instead of them the round before against Ty & Emily. CT was right and Diem should have listened. Diem always makes weird decisions when given the chance--see Fresh Meat I.
Johnny's a good strategist--he is...but he's not on Susie's level. I don't even see a valid argument. Being perfectly honest.[/QUOTE]
That's correct. Johnny is good, but not that good. Decision to throw Aneesa&Rachel was just stupid.
[QUOTE=blanky667;316487]Teehee, false. Going in eliminations against people that you can beat =/= being a lucky player.[/QUOTE]
Except going into an elimination round Bri had nothing to do with her decision or pre planning whatsoever so no, in this case it does not prove her abilities as an elite strategist which is exactly what I was trying to get at and that is that it is mostly LUCK that allows her to get matched up with sub par opponents
Teeehee.
[QUOTE=v123;316635]Except going into an elimination round Bri had nothing to do with her decision or pre planning whatsoever so no, in this case it does not prove her abilities as an elite strategist which is exactly what I was trying to get at and that is that it is mostly LUCK that allows her to get matched up with sub par opponents
Teeehee.[/QUOTE]
If it wasn't Brianna that week then it would have been Casey or Kimberly--Susie beat all 3 in elimination rounds so I fail to see how there was any "luck" with getting Brianna or anyone that week since she did face all of the options
[QUOTE=kvm1977;316546] Her only other H2H win is against Veronica. Maybe KellyAnne COULD BE great but she hasn't proven that at all thus far and definitely isn't elite. Do you seriously believe KellyAnne would beat any of those 3? I like KellyAnne but that's absurd.
Johnny's only 1 on 1 win for the record is against Dunbar. Not exactly impressive. We can add a 40 year old Mark as well though technically that was a partner elimination round. His buddy Evan even called him out because Evan felt like it was an easier win than Danny during the Gauntlet III. How good of a strategist are you when your friend calls you out?
[/QUOTE]
She went head to head against both Rachel and Robin in an endurance contest that left Rachel's legs and hands numb for an entire week. Robin, who is a decent competitor could barely even last half as long.
Kelly Anne would have probably taken Susie out in all of the ruins elimination rounds that involved physical ability. Susie's only good chance would have been in the one that Cohutta and Wes participated in. Kelly Anne would have thrown Susie around in the rope wrestling one. Susie already got physical with Kelly Anne in the Block Party Mission and she did not have a good showing at all even with the help of Ibis and Johanna. Do you know how much she struggled to get Kelly Anne across the line? Kelly Anne herself disclosed that Johanna was the real surprise in that mission and that Johanna was just as tough as Susie, if not more so.
When Johnny was asked to choose a team of only two girls from Real World as part of his ideal team he chose Emily and Kelly Anne and Derrick and Kenny both approved and agreed that they were great picks. Derrick chose Jodi and Rachel while Kenny chose Ev and Laurel. You can disagree that Kelly Anne is not a good competitor but you would also be disagreeing with Johnny, Kenny and Derrick, three guys that have more insight than most of us.
Tonya can often lack composure but in an elimination round involving strength or aggression which is what most of us think of when we think of elimination rounds, I would put my money on Tonya.
Johnny's win against Dunbar in a strength contest is more impressive than anything Susie has ever done in an elimination round. Add on his win against Mark and his record far exceeds Susie and her win by a thread against Bri. I don't even count her win against Jenn as anything considering that Jenn was in her worst shape athletically on I3 and because she got her carabiner stuck. Ev said that Susie's win against Jenn proved absolutely nothing from an athletic standpoint. Johnny's elimination round against Mark might as well have been an individual one. Camila had nothing to do with Johnny beating Mark in his heat.
[QUOTE=v123;316635]Except going into an elimination round Bri had nothing to do with her decision or pre planning whatsoever so no, in this case it does not prove her abilities as an elite strategist[/QUOTE]
I don't recall anyone ever saying that her elimination round record grants her status as an elite strategist...
Going in against people that you can beat =/= being lucky at all, you're just better than them in competitions and can beat them. Setting yourself up to go up against someone you could most likely beat compared to someone else, however, is good strategy... and I remember Susie doing exactly that via negotiating to go in against Kim as opposed to going in against KellyAnne, who was considered to be the strongest female on the Challengers team (if I remember correctly... haven't seen the season in so long).
Oh, well.
[QUOTE=jstizzle;316560]I really liked the way Fresh Meat 2 was edited. They showed and explained all of the alliances and motives. I feel like on Exes and Cutthroat a lot was assumed about alliances and why moves were being made. Hopefully on the next challenge they explain and show everything[/QUOTE]I disagree.
I don't like how they made it all about Wes vs Kenny... I don't know why on Earth they would go that route, knowing that Wes got out by round five (I believe?) - after that, they ended up with no story to show. It was kinda sad... although, I do agree that FM2 went into a little more depth on the gameplay and gave overviews of the alliances and such, which was pretty cool. :D
[QUOTE=blanky667;316640]I disagree.
I don't like how they made it all about Wes vs Kenny... I don't know why on Earth they would go that route, knowing that Wes got out by round five (I believe?) - after that, they ended up with no story to show. It was kinda sad... although, I do agree that FM2 went into a little more depth on the gameplay and gave overviews of the alliances and such, which was pretty cool. :D[/QUOTE]
It was Episode 7, not that it matters. I think they showed it that way because there were really no other storylines on the show... They didn't really have any other options. I didn't really mean that I liked the storyline on Fresh Meat 2, just the way the story was told sorta
[QUOTE=ChallengeGod;316554]Since when was the definition of being elite changed to being one of the top 3 at what you do? Kelly Anne isn't as good as Ev, Laurel, and Emily, but name anyone else who's better (besides maybe Camilla). And bro, we've argued Susie vs. Johnny enough, I never even mentioned Susie why are you still bringing that up? Last point Johnny and Evan weren't in an alliance on Gauntlet 3, and even still I think anyone would say that Evan should have called out Danny or Big Easy over Johnny.[/QUOTE]
Evan didn't call Big Easy or Danny because CT was calling the shots, he didn't want to risk Evan so he decided that Johnny had to go in.
[QUOTE=jstizzle;316642]I think they showed it that way because there were really no other storylines on the show... [/QUOTE]
Oh, I beg to differ. Production has weeks and weeks of footage - they can make anything they want out of any situation.
Past seasons have had incidents in episodes where a person that was eliminated in an earlier episode could *magically* be spotted in the background in a later episode - utilization of footage from, say, week two and week five and sticking them all together to make the show better.
They can make any story they want to portray... but they chose to make it all about Kenny and Wes, ultimately stupid to do - and what do you know? It failed, dramatically. xD
[QUOTE=kvm1977;316616]I've explained my point-of-view multiple times
Dunbar & Paula nor Abram & Cara Maria were likely to win a challenge either (unless there was another trivia one--which Rachel & Aneesa have just as good of a shot as winning). Johnny was simply seeking revenge. It was idiotic for anyone to throw the only team of two girls into an elimination round--you either want them in a final or to still be there for YOU if you finish last.
Johnny isn't always strategic...unlike Susie, Kenny, etc--the true great strategist. Johnny's not on that level. Johnny's very lucky that Diem's an idiot and wanted to throw in Dunbar & Paula instead of them the round before against Ty & Emily. CT was right and Diem should have listened. Diem always makes weird decisions when given the chance--see Fresh Meat I.
Johnny's a good strategist--he is...but he's not on Susie's level. I don't even see a valid argument. Being perfectly honest.[/QUOTE]
Okay so what if he threw in CT & Diem or Ty & Emily and they won and came back?
I've posted this before, but I wanted to get more opinions about this. Here's my scoring system to determine who is the greatest challenger of all time. To score points, you either have to win a final, make a final, win an elimination round, win a mission on a challenge with pairs or individual (Fresh Meats, Duels, Rivals, Exes, Battle of the Seasons), or win a life shield or life saver.
-6 points for winning a challenge (+2 for Duel, +1 for Fresh Meat, Rivals,
Battle of the Sexes, Battle of the Exes)
-4 points for second place (+1 for duel fm, rivals, BOTS, exes)
-3 points for a final (+1 for duel fm, rivals, BOTS, exes)
-Elimination round-2 points for beating great competitor, 1.5 for solid, 1 for
bad,
-1 point for life shield or life saver, 2 for individual/partner mission win
Also, I took records from every team challenge the competitor has been in and came up with their overall record.
-Overall team challenge win pct x 10 (must have competed in 10 team missions or automatic 5)
Miscellaneous
-Must have been on at least 2 challenges
-2 point for winning a face off on The island
-Abe -1 for quitting the island, mark -0 for losing Bots2, medical injury= -0,
quitting -2, -1 for I Can losses in the duel 1
You lose points by not making the finals and/or losing an elimination round.
- -1 for losing to great competitor, -1.5 for solid, -1 to bad)
- -2 for not making finals
Men
1. Kenny (65) 2. Evan (48.5) 3. Bananas (46.9) 4. Landon (46.7) 5. CT (37.2)
6.Darrell (36) 7.Derrick (35.3) 8. Miz (31.2) 9. Mark (29.3) 10.Wes (29)
11.Alton (27.8) 12. Theo (27.5) 13. Jamie (26.5) 14.Abe (25.3) 15. Dan (24.8)
16. Brad (23) 17. Tyler (21.7) 18. Timmy (21.3) 19. Frank
(13.1) 20. Leroy (12)
Women
1. Ev (38.8) 2. Laurel (38) 3. Coral (33.5) 4. Susie (31.4) 5. Jodi (28) 6.
Paula (25.5) 7. Veronica (25.1) 8. Jenn (22.3) 9. Rachel (21.5) 10. Emily (20.5)
11.Jill (20) 12. Roni (19.8) 13. Diem (19.4) 14. Holly (19.2) 15. Camilla (16.5) 16. Cara Maria
(15) 17.Tori (14.9) 18. Kina (14.5) 19.Cara (14) 20. Kelly Anne (12)
Average Seasons
Men
1. Landon (11.675) 2. Alton (9.267) 3. Jamie (8.833) 4. Dan (8.267) 5. Kenny (8.125) 6. Evan (8.083) 7. Theo (6.875) 8. Frank (6.55) 9. Miz (6.24) 10. Darrell (6), Leroy (6) 12. Bananas (5.863) 13. Tyler (5.425) 14. Timmy (5.325) 15. Mark (4.883) 16. CT (4.65) 17. Wes (4.143) 18. Derrick (3.992) 19. Abe (3.163) 20. Brad (2.875)
Women
1. Laurel (12.668) 2. Emily (10.25) 3. Roni (9.9) 4. Jodi (9.33) 5. Susie (7.65) 6. Jill (6.67) 7. Holly (6.4) 8. Kelly Anne (6) 9. Coral (5.58) 10. Ev (5.54) 11. Camilla (5.5) 12. Tori (4.967) 13. Kina (4.833) 14. Cara (4.667) 15. Cara Maria (3.75) 16. Jenn (3.717) 17. Diem (3.23) 18. Paula (3.188) 19. Veronica (3.138) 20. Rachel (3.071)
Best Individual Seasons
Jodi 20 duel
Kenny 16.5 fm2
Laurel 16.5 fm2
Ev 16.5 rivals
Paula 16.5 rivals
Evan 16 d2
Rachel 16 d2
Camilla 15 exes
Bananas 15 exes
Bananas 15 rivals
Tyler 15 rivals
Landon 14.5 fm2
Wes 14 duel
Darrell 13 fm
Miz 12 i2
Worst Player Ever
Danny (-16.5)
This system does have some flaws. The scores given from elimination wins are my subjective thoughts and how many points should be given for a win/loss. Also, people who have been on more challenges have a better chance to have higher scores, for instance Emily has only been on 2 challenges and is only in 10th place, but give her another challenge and she should be near the top. It also doesn't directly take into account the social game of the Challenge, but in some ways it does. Kenny is far and away the top ranked player mainly due to his ability to make almost every final without going into elimination rounds. Same with Coral and Jenn, who have each made 4 finals despite being the best competitors. Overall though, I think it works pretty well as it got in my opinion the best male and female players of all time right in Kenny and Ev. The average seasons are very biased for the people who have been on the fewest amount of challenges (thats why Roni is somehow #3 for the girls).
I have this deja vu feeling. Haven't posted it somewhere before?
Btw, if you have time, you could also make the worst competitor ranking, as I think it would be interesting to see.
[QUOTE=El Scorcho;316656]Okay so what if he threw in CT & Diem or Ty & Emily and they won and came back?[/QUOTE]
I never said throw in those teams. I said Abram & Cara Maria or Dunbar & Paula.
The Island wasn't head-to-head...there were 3 people. You can't use that as a H2H win. Robin's a decent competitor? Robin's awful under pressure--absolutely awful.
Johnny couldn't pick Susie over KellyAnne since Susie isn't RW--and Johnny's bias gets in the way. Emily is the only elite female RW competitor currently (prior to BOSeasons2). You can throw KellyAnne in a large group of others. Picking KellyAnne as the second best RW girl doesn't put her on the level of Emily, Laurel, Evelyn, Jodi, Tori, Rachel, etc. There aren't a lot of RW girls that are good.
LMAO that Johnny beating Dunbar in the same comp that Susie beat Kimberly in was "more impressive". Camila beating Robin meant there wasn't a "tie-breaker"--therefore since isn't a true H2H elimination round. And Mark is 40--in great shape but 40.
Again, none of this has ANYTHING to do with the discussion. Susie > Johnny as a strategist--you're trying to make it about Johnny as a competitor since there isn't a valid argument regarding him as a strategist
[QUOTE=kvm1977;316699]I never said throw in those teams
I said Abram & Cara Maria or Dunbar & Paula[/QUOTE]
Well I'm asking what if CT & Diem or Ty & Emily were thrown in.
[QUOTE=kvm1977;316701]The Island wasn't head-to-head...there were 3 people. You can't use that as a H2H win. Robin's a decent competitor? Robin's awful under pressure--absolutely awful.
Johnny couldn't pick Susie over KellyAnne since Susie isn't RW--and Johnny's bias gets in the way. Emily is the only elite female RW competitor currently (prior to BOSeasons2). You can throw KellyAnne in a large group of others. Picking KellyAnne as the second best RW girl doesn't put her on the level of Emily, Laurel, Evelyn, Jodi, Tori, Rachel, etc. There aren't a lot of RW girls that are good.
LMAO that Johnny beating Dunbar in the same comp that Susie beat Kimberly in was "more impressive". Camila beating Robin meant there wasn't a "tie-breaker"--therefore since isn't a true H2H elimination round. And Mark is 40--in great shape but 40.
Again, none of this has ANYTHING to do with the discussion. Susie > Johnny as a strategist--you're trying to make it about Johnny as a competitor since there isn't a valid argument regarding him as a strategist[/QUOTE]
The point that there were 3 people involved is moot and weak to boot. Whether or not it's "H2H" doesn't change the fact that the outcome would have been the same had it been an elimination round. Throw Kelly Anne in a "H2H" with Robin in the same event, only labeled by your definition as "H2H" and the result would have been the SAME. She still beat her. And I love how you conviently ignore the fact that she still beat Rachel and pushed her to her absolute limit.
Your interpretation of why Johnny picked Kelly Anne is just wishful thinking on your part. He brought her name up and did not sound the least bit resentful that he had to "resort" to such a choice as opposition to Jodi, Rachel, Laurel and she was still qualified as a"great" pick by Kenny and Derrick. If somebody is validated as a "GREAT" pick then it's pretty obvious that's what it is. And there are some decent picks from the Real World pool such as Beth, Coral, Paula, Ruthie, Julie, Jenn and Sarah.
Cara Maria recently said on formspring that Kelly Anne as well as Rachel, Laurel, Ev, Emily and a couple of others would be apart of her fantasy draft. Ev was also asked the question on formspring of who she thought the strongest female competitors were and she was part of the list. You conveniently ignore all evidence that disproves your claim like the all the open commentary from the cast members on how Kelly Anne is a great competitor.
And yes, Johnny's beating Dunbar in a strength contest where Dunbar excels is more impressive than Susie's beating Kim. Kimberly is a good competitor but brute strength and physical contact is not her forte. It doesn't matter that there wasn't a tie breaker...take out the women from the elimination round and the result would have been the SAME. It doesn't matter that it was a partner elimination round because Camila had nothing to do with Johnny's victory over Mark.
I don't necessarily think Johnny is a better strategist than Susie nor did I ever say I did because I think there are way too many variables involved to make an absolute claim like this. I simply said that Susie has been a lot more fortunate than Johnny. Johnny going up against CT on Cutthroat was completely out of her control, it had nothing to do with Johnny's lack of "strategy", he just happened to get a dose of bad luck all at the wrong time, something that Susie hardly ever gets.
[QUOTE=El Scorcho;316710]Well I'm asking what if CT & Diem or Ty & Emily were thrown in.[/QUOTE]
I wouldn't suggest throwing CT & Diem in that early but Ty & Emily were fair game--they definitely weren't a part of Johnny's alliance.
v123, Johnny had to pick a Real World girl--his options were very limited. The best female competitors (other than Emily) are Road Rules and Fresh Meat alums.
Who has Dunbar ever beat in a H2H competition? The only one that comes to mind is Dan during Cutthroat. I don't see Dunbar as a great competitor either. JMO
Cara Maria's opinion means absolutely nothing to me--for what it's worth. KellyAnne's done two challenges and she's hasn't impressed me to the level Emily, Laurel, Ev, Rachel, etc did at the same stage. She may still be on the balance beam thing.
[QUOTE=ChallengeGod;316671]I've posted this before, but I wanted to get more opinions about this. Here's my scoring system to determine who is the greatest challenger of all time. To score points, you either have to win a final, make a final, win an elimination round, win a mission on a challenge with pairs or individual (Fresh Meats, Duels, Rivals, Exes, Battle of the Seasons), or win a life shield or life saver.
[/QUOTE]
What made Danny the worst player ever? I haven't seen all of his challenges, and I don't like him as a person too much either, but what was it exactly that he's the worst challenger ever?
The formula that I made up. He's been on 5 seasons, never won an elimination round or made a final, and has lost to guys like Davis. If you want a complete breakdown, I gave him -1 for losing to Wes and Casey on fresh meat and -2 for not making the finals, -2 for losing to Davis on inferno 3 and -2 for not making the finals, -1.5 for losing to Adam on the Gauntlet 3 and -2 for not making the finals, -1 for losing to Darrell on the Ruins and -2 for not making the finals, and -1 for losing to Pete and Jill on Fresh Meat 2 and -2 for not making the finals. Total score -16.5. I also forgot to take his team win pct into account. His teams are 16-9, which is 64% win pct, so his actual total score is -10.1.
[QUOTE=raskkii;316672]I have this deja vu feeling. Haven't posted it somewhere before?
Btw, if you have time, you could also make the worst competitor ranking, as I think it would be interesting to see.[/QUOTE]
Yup, that was literally the first thing I said. I will do a worst competitor ranking at some point, I know for sure Danny's worst and Tyrie's 2nd, but im currently intoxicated and will do the rankings at a later date.
[QUOTE=ChallengeGod;316671]I've posted this before, but I wanted to get more opinions about this. Here's my scoring system to determine who is the greatest challenger of all time. To score points, you either have to win a final, make a final, win an elimination round, win a mission on a challenge with pairs or individual (Fresh Meats, Duels, Rivals, Exes, Battle of the Seasons), or win a life shield or life saver.
[/QUOTE]
Not a bad system, but I gotta say, there's no way Kenny is the best player ever. Even top 10 seems to be hard to believe. I don't think in the history of this show, a champion (a 3 time champ nonetheless) gave such an awful performance (DQ'D 4 times in a row on Rivals). In fact, I think he's the champion with the most DQ in history. Im sorry but you can't be #1 after such an awful performance.
The only challenge that I think he performed well (physically not strategically) in was The Inferno 3. He actually had to perform by himself because otherwise, he would've been gone. He actually lost his face-off on The Island, his key was GIVEN to him and in my opinion, whoever had Laurel by his side on FM2 would've made it to the finals or won. Every. Single. Time. He either had friends on his team, or a very good teammate. On Duel 1 he sucked. Inferno 3 he performed well. In my opinion, he deserved to win only once.
As for Johnny, I don't like him but I gotta give him props because he really is TRYING on these challenges. Always struggling to get to the final (Island, Inferno 3) it doesn't always work but he gives his 100% everytime and he's the only one in the JEK to actually wet himself while Kenny stays in the back and watches him (Rivals).
But I gotta give you a thumb up for building such an elaborate system for your top 10.
In my opinion, Kenny is the best PLAYER ever. Definitely not best competitor, probably not even top 10, but to make 7 out of 8 finals is something that no one will ever do again, and the ultimate goal of the game is to make the finals and make money. If Landon or Alton would have done more challenges they would probably be ahead of him, but the system rewards for more challenges. He's the champion with the most DQs in history because they would literally give out DQs on rivals for sneezing. My personal order is Kenny 1, Landon 2, and Bananas 3, but I can understand why a lot of people think Landon's the best.
[QUOTE=kvm1977;316720]
Cara Maria's opinion means absolutely nothing to me-[/QUOTE]
Why don't you put value in Cara Maria's opinion? Have you found her opinions to be contradicting or inconsistent?
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